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Jeep-Short Wheelbase All discussion of short wheelbase Jeeps: CJ, TJ, YJ and JK

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post #1 of (permalink) Old 09-09-2006, 05:23 PM Thread Starter
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cage

Hi

I have an 85 CJ7...I was thinking about putting in a full roll cage as I have little kids that ride in the back with me.

But then I thought...would I be almost as well off just swapping in a cage from a later YJ?

I don't do any serious rock crawling...but think any kind of on road driving would probably be better served with a full cage...probably more so than offraod.

Any thoughts/opinions?

Thanks
Patrick
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post #2 of (permalink) Old 09-09-2006, 05:30 PM
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Re: cage

IMHO, you should build a Full cage. The YJ cage is advertised as a "Sports Bar." Can you guess why? This is not an area to go cheap. You can use the YJ cage as a starting point, but it is only that, a place to start.

You want to make sure to make a sturdy cage. This means lots of triangulation bracing. One problem if a cage is not constructed correctly is lay over damage. The cage may hold the Jeep if it's upside down, but to get that way it has to take a lot of sideways force. That force can collapse a cage in a direction of opposite to the force. That is where you're kids will be sitting.

Do it right.. the first time.. don't skip and go cheap.. and pray you never have to test it.
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post #3 of (permalink) Old 09-09-2006, 05:59 PM
 
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Re: cage

If you need a YJ roll bar, let me know. I have one from a 1995. If you don't have the experience to put it together, the crew at J&L does a fantastic job and are minutes from Mad town. They can have the front hoops done, tied to the frame, and on your way fairly reasonable. You can have the YJ roll bar if you want it, just need to get to Green Bay to pick it up. Rick
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post #4 of (permalink) Old 09-09-2006, 10:19 PM
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Re: cage

Larry is spot on and I am also finally taking his advise and building a full cage before I do anything else with my new tub/frame.

I don't think this is considered a highjack, but... I'm sure some of you have used a cheaper style pipe bender to make bends in DOM tubing. If I am careful, how much (degree wise) of a bend could I expect to accomplish using this method without harming the structural integrity of the tubing?

I have friends with a power bender, but I think they saw big dollar signs when I talked to them about using for a morning. So I'm thinking of only using their bender to do the tight corners and 90 degree bends and using a pipe bender to make all the little tweaks such as, curving the main hoop under the dash and putting the bend in spreader bars etc. I've been searching and reading, but since it came up I figured I ask for any fresh input. Thanks [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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post #5 of (permalink) Old 09-09-2006, 11:28 PM
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Re: cage

The main weakness of the Wrangler cage is that the side bars in the front tie into the windshield frame....and guess how strong that is in a roll over?

You need a good strong hoop in the front....that is the part that will protect you....

Do a search....we had a discussion about a year ago on the pros and cons of frame tie in of the roll cage....my personal opinion is that if I'm rolling that bad, I don't really want to stay with the frame...if it rips off the body...let it...I want to stay tucked inside the roll cage and tub.....
post #6 of (permalink) Old 09-10-2006, 03:36 PM
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Re: cage

Sounds like you are having the same issues about a gauge as I am. This is what I did and am doing. First off the gauge needs to be safe...obviously, but it ought to look good to. I found pics and took picks of cauges that I liked. Then I took the pics and my list of requirements to a race car fab shop...(check your yellow pages). This is what I wanted. 1. Rear hoop to protect the kids and still allow the hardtop. 2. a front hoop around the windshield. 3. both those tied to the stock cj bar. 4. two spreaders from teh front hoop to the CJ hoop along the floor with cross bars connecting them to mount the seats on.
This is what I was told. we can do it we will tie the front bar to the frame. The stock bar is tied into the body mounts so it is strong enough. And yes we can mount the seats to the cross bars instead of the floor. All this for .... $500.00 and it is IHA approved to put on a track. They are my new bestest firends, just need to come up with the money. Remember all the extra bars are generally just for show adn add lots of weight to the jeep. Good luck
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post #7 of (permalink) Old 09-10-2006, 04:18 PM
 
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Re: cage

[ QUOTE ]
Remember all the extra bars are generally just for show adn add lots of weight to the jeep.

[/ QUOTE ]

All the extra bars are to add triangulation and strenth. As far as cages go in my book there are 2 kinds the 1 time cage and the I roll alot cage. The 1 time roll sport cage, the basic weld on front hoop, maybe a couple tubes to triangulate or protect back seat passangers. The basic add on cages are great and they will save you but after 1 hard roll they are usually bent/ tweaked though you will survive. The i roll alot cage usually is not built off the factory cage, has a lot of tringualtion, has seats tied in, door bars, harness bars, and usually is fine after a hard roll to be used again.

As far as pipe benders go they work good for pipe. Some people have gotten them to work on dom, i've never tried it. I don't want to start the pipe vs. tube debate but if you want some more info shoot me a pm, my buggy is a pipe buggy.
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post #8 of (permalink) Old 09-10-2006, 05:16 PM
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Re: cage

Yeah, I'm not interested in the pipe/tube debate. I am using tube. I have a welder and don't need someone to tie it into the stock hoop or frame. That I can do myself, along with the not so tight bends... if a pipe bender will do them. Just trying to keep the budget reasonable and do as much as I can myself. I hate paying for work I could have done.

I don't plan on rolling a lot, but I want the cage to be able to stand up to a possible highway speed accident... so it's gonna have to be pretty tough.

As far as tying into the frame. You better make darn sure all points are either tied to the body only or frame only, not some here some there. The last thing you want is part of your cage going in one direction (front hoop, frame, engine) and the rest (rear cage, body) going the opposite way, with you and your seat bolted in between. Also, if you are mounting your seats to the cage, make sure you mount the seat belts to it as well, or a similar "separation" could occur with you trapped in the middle.
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post #9 of (permalink) Old 09-10-2006, 11:37 PM
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Re: cage

Think about it. Race cars are sedans, the entire cage is built inside the vehicle, trapped by the top. Some parts tied to the frame and some to the body are acceptable - it can't really go anywhere.

But - Jeep tops come off - fabric, glass, or no top at all. That's a different story.

Formula cars and the like don't use add-on roll cages, the entire car is the cage.

A cage tied to the frame? Seats are tied to the body, you are inside the body - even if you tie them to the cage on runners the floor, dash, sides etc is underneath and around you. If the body separates from the frame (look at what holds them together - flimsey little mounts) the body lifts up or moves sideways, you get trapped between the body and cage. They make gopher traps like that - visit a Walmart.

Take a walk around a junkyard - Notice how many frame type cars that were crashed have broken body mounts. That was one big reason they went Unibody!

Best way - design a safety capsule that stays together. If the frame goes one way, and your capsule goes the other - who cares as long as you live!


Interesting - do a little research - DOM - Drawn Over Mandrel - it's rounder than ERW - and more brittle - the drawing process work hardens it. It's intended to be used for hydraulic cylinders where round is critical 'cause it has a piston going through it. It's the same steel as ERW, just harder because of the work hardening. Try bending both - the DOM is much harder to bend - even though it's slightly thinner.

Now when you bend already work hardened DOM it work hardens even more - creating stress lines in a different direction than the original stress lines - crosshatch style. Oops - too much work hardening causes tiny stress CRACKS. Now it can shatter easier - like tempered glass.

I'd rather have it bend a little than shatter. Try bending some DOM - then acid dip it - then look at it close with a magnifying glass - see the tiny cracks like a crazed windshield?

Do the same with ERW --- you decide which you'd rather stake your life on.

Proper design, or one little extra brace, or good corner gussets, or internal stubs are far more important strength-wise than the small difference in possible dubious strength due to work hardening.

Stay safe, stay alive!
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post #10 of (permalink) Old 09-28-2006, 08:53 PM Thread Starter
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Re: cage

Hi

Anyone care to post some pictures (or a link to some other threads) of your full cages...what you like about it and what you'd do different if you were building it again?

And I'll be sure to tie the seats to the cage (if I end up tying the cage to the frame)!!...would rather not get cut in half by my seat belt!!

Thank you!!
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