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post #51 of (permalink) Old 09-13-2005, 10:40 PM
 
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Re: TFI and HEI what\'s the difference?

[ QUOTE ]

I NEVER CLAIMED I INVENTED, DESIGNED or INSTALLED THE IGNITION SYSTEMS IN JEEPS...""""


[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't invent the Motorcraft ignition system.
I didn't Design the Motorcraft ignition system.
I didn't work for AMC and make the decision to use Motorcraft ignition systems in Jeeps...

Is that clear enough?
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I DID bring the large cap, rotor, high energy plug wire & E-core coil upgrades to the BBS in '99 or '00, can't remember right off hand.
Everyone was buying Jacobs and DUI, or pulling perfectly good Motorcraft distributors out of I-6's for GM scabbed in HEIs...
And they called me everything in the book when I suggested the simple Off the Shelf parts could solve most, if not all the problems people were having with stock Motorcraft ignitions.
USE SEARCH....
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F-1 cars are factory test beds, NOT FACTORY PROTOTYPES...
F-1 is where all of the new engine, brake and trans tech shows up first...
That's why Joe Average is never in F-1 racing, unless his last name is HONDA or BOSCH...
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[ QUOTE ]

I HAVE installed several big cap upgrades, along with several HEI modules in the last few months. And a few MSD's. I've also done several years ago, but I'm not sure I ever did a Jeep then.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been doing them since the early 80's and I thought EVERYBODY knew about it.
Glad you got some use out of the upgrade, just hold off on the HEI modules right away...
See if the guy likes the upgrade first...
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[ QUOTE ]

(most deleted)... Need 2 a pole switch to do that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, like I said in my post, you need a 4 pole, double throw switch for factory ignition modules.
You will also need a pair of diodes in the feed wires to the coil or you will back feed.
Try this web site for buying a 4 pole double throw switch for (are you sitting down?) $90.88!
http://store.summitracing.com/default.as...t=egnsearch.asp

I thought I was getting ripped off at $15 a pop!
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[ QUOTE ]

That necessitates even 2 more poles on that switch! Giving 5! That's an unusual switch!...

1. One double throw pole to switch module main power on and off to each module one at a time. Disables the module not in use.
2. Another double pole to connect/disconnect the (+) primary side of each coil to prevent backfeeding.
3. A third double throw pole to connect/disconnect the (-) side of each coil, one at a time to prevent loading by the unused coil.
4,5. 2 contacts more to switch BOTH PU coil wires to the module to be used.


[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, I have a drawer full of 6 pole double throw switches.
Use diodes to stop back feeding on module power... that takes care of one pole of your five...
You can also eliminate two wires by using a dual mag trigger (and NO, I'm not going to take a beating trying to teach anyone how to build one... Look on the web site.)
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[ QUOTE ]

Maybe this should give you some insight on why neither of yours works right.


[/ QUOTE ]

At what point did you read that neither of mine works right?
Are you talking about the coil break-down I was discussing earlier?

Both ignitions work fine, but differently...

So far, the DuraSpark does a much better job getting the tired little engine started, especially if it already warm... As expected.
So far, the HEI DOESN'T start as easy, and causes 'popping' when trying to start warm.

The DuraSpark seems to have better 'Roll On' through the RPM range.
The HEI Seems to have more 'Jump' when doing short, quick accelerations.
This is probably why people seem to 'see' a seat of the pants difference...
('Seeing' with the seat of their pants says something about them also...)

Explained by the HEI adding 4.5 to 5.0 degrees of ignition timing over the DuraSpark...
HEI has NO start circuit, and adds around 5 degrees of ignition timing... This would explain the hard start and kick back problem, and the added low to mid range acceleration.
I don't have an accelerometer hooked up, but short throttle bursts show the HEI gaining RPM faster between 1,200 and 2,300.
DuraSpark and HEI both run about the same from 2,300 to 5,000
(5K is as hard as I dare turn the little '73 304)

DuraSpark is averaging about 0.5 MPG more than the HEI. (neither gets enough to brag about... around 13.2 to 13.7 so far)
Don't ask me why, I don't have that one figured out yet. There is no apparent reason for it.
Actually, the HEI with more advance should get better MPG, but that doesn't seem to be the case after the third tank of gas with each...

Here is a couple of the pictures from the web site.
PROPERLY DONE HEI MOUNT, Copper heat sink, heat transfer paste, ect.

And this is a dual pickup for a Delco points type distributor conversion.
This is truely a redundant ignition system for real off roaders...

I don't have any script written for them yet, I seem to waste too much time here [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wall.gif[/img] trying to teach pigs to sing...

Poke around the site there a little, you might find out a thing or two that is interesting...
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[ QUOTE ]

86 CJ7 wrote...
I assume this was directed at me. If so you can go f-yourself d-head. Please go back and read my post. What I ment was I find it very hard to believe you could tell the difference driving down the road with a HEI or MSD. I never said one wasn't better than the other. It's like these people who put in a K&N filter and claim they can feel the power increase. The K&N is better for performance, but do you actually think it is noticable, I simply don't believe it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Typical,
When you 'ASSUME' you make an 'ASS out of U & ME'...
Wasn't directed at you, but if you want to borrow trouble, OK with me.

K&N is an expensive joke.
The Correct air filter WILL MAKE YOU FEEL IT IN THE SEAT OF YOUR PANTS.
Most people have air filters WAY too small, and an air filter is some of the cheapest horsepower you can buy.

As for MSD & HEI, Tons of hot rodders, off roaders, racers, and everyday drivers can certanly tell the differance. I have no idea what your problem might be....
You've not posted anything constructive so think what you like, and we'll ignore it like we have the rest of your posts.

As for calling me names, it's probably a good thing you can hide behind the internet, Rambo....
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[ QUOTE ]

OlllllllOCJ Wrote:
(mindless drivel deleted)... 3. Read the profile of the original poster, his BBS nick is not what he's working on (it's a 1982 California CJ-7 w/258)

[/ QUOTE ]

Challange accepted, answer is...
Nothing.
It's a Calaforina vehicle, so he's screwed.
MSD IS THE ONLY PRODUCT DISCUSSED HERE THAT IS CARB LEGAL
You can get the large cap, rotor, plug wires, ignition coil, DuraSpark module and 6 series MSD Capicicative discharge module from MSD, and ALL OF IT IS CARB LEGAL IN ALL 50 STATES.

NOW, that should put a cork in you, but I'm sure it won't.

AND...
If the peanut gallery would have kept out of it, it would have been a pretty simple...
1. Upgrade the cap, rotor, plug wires. See if you like it.
2. Upgrade the ignition coil. See if you like it.
3. Upgrade the ignition module from Inductive to Capacitive Discharge. See if you like it.
Changing from one inductive module to another inductive module isn't an upgrade, it's moving sideways (at best), not up...

[ QUOTE ]

OlllllllOCJ Wrote:
If you want to go toe to toe, kewl.... At 51 years old I'm still just juvenile enough to take you up on it if you think there's something to be gained, convince me.

[/ QUOTE ]

PERFECT! Just what I like to hear!
I'll be in Louisville Saturday morning at the Convention Center West Wing, for a martial arts/ law enforcement seminar.
That should be about 8 feet from your front door.
George Dillman Karate International Invitational.
Ryukyu Kempo tournament, Kyusho-Jitsu pressure point handcuff & restraint and Thai kick boxing.
I'm sure my regular partners won't mind sitting a round or two out.
Show up at the door and I'll make sure you get in for free, just tell Bill Burch you are 'Knuckles' sparing partner... Doors open at 6:30a and first match is at 8:00a.
You can even wear padding if you like. (I never do, padding is for wonder bras)
Don't forget to sign the waver... That way it's all legal...
===========

Post Script,
Dale has accepted via private message, so we are on for Saturday!
Sure hope he brings that video camera, and if he doesn't, I have one!
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post #52 of (permalink) Old 09-14-2005, 09:06 AM
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Re: TFI and HEI what\'s the difference?

[ QUOTE ]
Typical,
When you 'ASSUME' you make an 'ASS out of U & ME'...
Wasn't directed at you, but if you want to borrow trouble, OK with me.

K&N is an expensive joke.
The Correct air filter WILL MAKE YOU FEEL IT IN THE SEAT OF YOUR PANTS.
Most people have air filters WAY too small, and an air filter is some of the cheapest horsepower you can buy.

As for MSD & HEI, Tons of hot rodders, off roaders, racers, and everyday drivers can certanly tell the differance. I have no idea what your problem might be....
You've not posted anything constructive so think what you like, and we'll ignore it like we have the rest of your posts.

As for calling me names, it's probably a good thing you can hide behind the internet, Rambo....

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that K&N is a joke, that is why I used it as an example. Now I can truly call you a joke as you are telling me that an air filter can give you feel in the seat of the pants. Not in 99.9% of the vehicles out there.

Since you can't figue out my problem, here it is. You have contributed many positive things to this forum, many I have used myself over the years. Why can't you just do that and not be an *******. And maybe I am not as sensitive as you and can't tell the slight advantage of a MSD. You must be special.

I have been away from this forum for about a year with very little posts, kind of like you except you had no posts. I used to partcipate as much as I could and am starting to again as I can. I find it insulting for you to tell me that I have not been apart of this board. I know that I only have 640+ posts but I can't get on the board every day let alone every week. My appologies to everyone else here that I don't have as much knowledge as others here but I try and I have not been here lately but intend to be here more in the future.

I don't need to hide behid the internet - *******. I only wish you lived a little closer as I would tahe great joy in beating your stupid punk ass!
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post #53 of (permalink) Old 09-14-2005, 10:03 AM
 
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Re: TFI and HEI what\'s the difference?


Maybe you should ask RRich about his current project and the differance an air filter made...





MENSA says I'm not stupid, military says I'm not a punk, 30 years as a martial arts & hand to hand combat instructor says you won't beat my anything...
But you can ask Dale on sunday, (maybe...)

Like I said, internet Rambo, good thing you have excuses...
---------------------------------------------------------


... Teaching pigs to sing for over 30 years...
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post #54 of (permalink) Old 09-14-2005, 10:31 AM
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Re: TFI and HEI what\'s the difference?

Just to clarify a couple of things:
The K&N I used was not the cartridge replacement for the stock filter, it also was the snout. Those two together made a "feelable" difference. Just one or the other? - who knows!

Sometimes just flipping the aircleaner lid so more air can get in makes a big difference - I've seen as much as 45 HP gains. Yet sometimes it makes no difference at all. Ya just have to try it.

But - ignitions, air filters, exhausts etc. - anything. If replacing something that was NOT restricting or limiting power with something "trick" it's NOT going to help.

If the exhaust was already free enough, a freer one won't make any difference.
If the present ignition is lighting the spark sufficiently, then changing ignition types won't have any affect.
Replacing something irrelevant won't help - so new seat covers won't make it go faster.

You first have to determine WHAT is causing the limitations, then overcome them.

What works for me doesn't mean it'll work for you, and vice versa!

There's one exception though that I think everyone agrees with - adding several big STP stickers on the fenders nearly doubles the Horsepower.
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post #55 of (permalink) Old 09-14-2005, 12:30 PM
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Re: TFI and HEI what\'s the difference?

[ QUOTE ]
MENSA says I'm not stupid, military says I'm not a punk, 30 years as a martial arts & hand to hand combat instructor says you won't beat my anything...
But you can ask Dale on sunday, (maybe...)

Like I said, internet Rambo, good thing you have excuses...

[/ QUOTE ]


I was going to respond to this but I think maybe I will just go away. No use arguing with a name calling idiot who thinks hes a bad ass!
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post #56 of (permalink) Old 09-14-2005, 01:15 PM
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Re: TFI and HEI what\'s the difference?

Okay, I've watched this thread getting nastier for several days. This is the end of it. Anyone who resorts to name calling, threatening or other forms of nastiness or flaming will be banned for a while. Take it to Pirate. We don't want it here.

Now, back to the technical issues.
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post #57 of (permalink) Old 09-14-2005, 06:13 PM
 
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Re: TFI and HEI what\'s the difference?

[ QUOTE ]

RRich Wrote:
There's one exception though that I think everyone agrees with - adding several big STP stickers on the fenders nearly doubles the Horsepower.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had no idea STP stickers were worth that much!
I know the SWB*BBS stickers were worth 15 HP and 25 lbs of torque!

How may guys here are old enough to remember those big ole STP stickers?
That's an 'Old Fart' :codger: reference... (trouble is, I had STP stickers back when!)
That goes right along with the 8 track tape players with the 'T' handles on top you used to change tracks... (I had a couple of them too!).

Remember when the 'Must Have' accessory was 'T' handle valve cover tie downs?
Anyone remember the hood pin craze?

Nothing like Double Knit Leisure Suits in colors not found in nature...
Skin tight printed rayon shirts, lots of gold chains, and platform shoes...
Mood rings and pet rocks...
And people wonder why I roll my eyes every time some dim bulb says, "They sure don't make 'em like they used to!"
=======================

Skippy can't figure out how an air cleaner can help increase horse power...
Guess he's never seen an air cleaner that was too small, or some clown used a low profile air cleaner, so every time the secondaries opened, the air cleaner lid collapsed down over the choke horn on the carb...
----------------------

Remember in the early 80's when GM had to replace all of the exhaust 'Y' pipes on large cars and pickups with V-8's?
That stupid inner & outer pipe thing they did?
The inside pipe would collapse, and with the outer pipe, you couldn't see it...
That put a restriction in the exhaust tract!
----------------------

Ford's famous vacuum line fiasco...
The late 70's- early 80's when the emissions vacuum lines would turn to goo when exposed to fuel vapor?

How about the map sensors that couldn't take fuel vapor... I think all of the big three had problems with that.
I noticed they mount the map sensor above intake level, and where it can drain of fuel vapor condenses....
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post #58 of (permalink) Old 09-14-2005, 09:51 PM
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Re: TFI and HEI what\'s the difference?

[ QUOTE ]
How may guys here are old enough to remember those big ole STP stickers?
That's an 'Old Fart' :codger: reference... (trouble is, I had STP stickers back when!)
That goes right along with the 8 track tape players with the 'T' handles on top you used to change tracks... (I had a couple of them too!).

[/ QUOTE ]

I remember all of what you talk about and I am only 37 years old. I had 8 tracks and used to hang out with older motor heads when I was very young. I used to work on monster trucks and pulling trucks, etc. I remember rolling Little Barefoot over with the driver Paula back in the 80's as a passanger. They don't allow passangers now. When I was in to Mustangs and the 5.0's were making 325HP and 400LBs torque (naturaly asperated) we laughed at the people who said could see a difference in the seat of the pants with a mear 10HP gian. Tell me you got more than that with a air filter change? That is why I laugh at your posts. Being a old curmudgeon does not make you correct!

BTW, my name is not Skippy, Gramps!
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post #59 of (permalink) Old 09-14-2005, 11:31 PM
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Re: TFI and HEI what\'s the difference?

It usually takes about a 5% difference to actually tell a difference by driving it. At 200HP that would be about 10 HP. That's what they claim, 10 HP. I could feel the difference in mine when I stopped restricting it. It wasn't a huge gain, but every little bit helps. It had the airbox on the right inner fender, the airbox had a very small snout that all the air had to pass through. I ditched the whole mess. It's legal because there is no emissions system in that portion. The Rockette snout with the K&N is CARB approved - came with the sticker showing the registration number.

YJ's are even worse! They have that upside down version of the aircleaner with a very restrictive snout that bends the air. Not sure what's available aftermarket, but for a few friends I've fabbed a duct into a bigger element. They have all told me they could feel a big difference.

I've seen gains of 45HP or so on motorhomes - big motors, measured on my chassis dyno just by flipping the air cleaner lid upside down - so all the air doesn't have to cram through a tiny snout.

My 454 Suburban sure woke up when I got rid of all the restrictive ducting and went to a big tall open air filter. Not smog legal as it bypasses the hot air system. But come smog time it goes back to stock for a few hours.

"IF" - and that's the crucial word - "IF" - the present system is restrictive, it'll make a difference.
"IF" - it's not, it obviously won't!

Same like advance, ignition, mixture, compression, etc - if it's wrong and you make it right it helps. If it's already close to "good" you'll never notice it.

Easy enough to try - try driving it down the road (a clean road) without an aircleaner or ducting - if it makes a difference, consider changing it. If not, stay status quo. Just watch out for underhood insulation getting sucked down in - nasty!
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post #60 of (permalink) Old 09-15-2005, 04:09 AM
 
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Re: TFI and HEI what\'s the difference?

My beef if that most low restriction air cleaners like K&N also allow more dirt into the engine. Shure they give a little boost because of less resrtictions but your going to wear your cylinder walls down with all the dirt collecting in them. Sure they came out with a "pre" filter sock for them but hats the point? THey are probably all right on a track but on a dusty trail or dirt gravel road? Hey, I seen the inside of your guys engine compartments. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/AR15firing.gif[/img]

Read this artical when you have the chance.
http://home.usadatanet.net/~jbplock/ISO5011/SPICER.htm

"In the chart above it’s important to note the different test durations for each filter. The AC Delco filter test ran for 60 minutes before exceeding the restriction limit while the AMSOIL and K&N tests each ran for 20 and 24 minutes respectively before reaching max restriction. In 60 minutes the AC Filter accumulated 574gms of dirt and passed only 0.4gms. After only 24 minutes the K&N had accumulated 221gms of dirt but passed 7.0gms. Compared to the AC, the K&N “plugged up” nearly 3 times faster, passed 18 times more dirt and captured 37% less dirt. See the data tables for a complete summary of these comparisons." Summary from the study, not my quote.

If you want a quick thrill run K&N, If you still want to run on your original engine after 250,000 miles, stay stock. If it's too restrictive I just stack another filter on top.

I'm not even going to mention that piece of toilet paper they call airfilters sold with those Weber conversion kits. What a joke for protection and performance.

RRich, those air cleaners on YJ's started on CJ's with power brakes. I got one on my CJ. I need the hot air to prevenf iceing on the booster on my little YF so I don't see it as a restriction. Heck I can still get the 'ol gal up to 85 and get 19 mpg out her.

Oh by the way my nickname has been Skip, Skipper, Skippy for about 51 years now...
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