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post #41 of (permalink) Old 09-11-2005, 08:09 PM
 
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Re: TFI and HEI what\'s the difference?

[ QUOTE ]

That snapper-head chaps my ass...
Takes my upgrades, trys adding a HEI module, screwed that, and declares himself the last word in the subject.

This is the same guy that posted the nightmare of wiring that was installed so poorly I didn't even bother to comment...

Then questions my motives? Fuc$ him with a jackhammer...
He better hope we never meet face to face, or Lucy will have some 'splainin' to do...
-------------

as for 'test' equipment, put the ignitions system in an environment chamber, add two atmospheres, moisture, exhaust gasses oil vapor, liquid oil and liquid fuel, maybe some inorganic compounds fused to the electrodes, then we'll talk.

I have that very chamber, called the 'Crusher'.
The name should pretty much describe what happens to 'Theory' when the hammer falls.
You are in Cal, get a hold of Craig Railsback, head tech geek at Blower Drive Service and see what he thinks of the Crusher...

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes I get lost who your talking about...

Anyway, The "crusher" sounds interesting I'm assuming the "Crush" comes from pressure increase and nothing physical.

I got a environmental chamber chamber also but it's small one (18 cuft.) only does temperature, humidity and high altitude or vacuum. Typical mil spec testing stuff.
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post #42 of (permalink) Old 09-11-2005, 08:56 PM
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Re: TFI and HEI what\'s the difference?

Is a MSD better than a HEI? Is a 1996 Dom Perignon better than a 1990 Krug? Someone help me!
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post #43 of (permalink) Old 09-11-2005, 09:20 PM
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Re: TFI and HEI what\'s the difference?

[ QUOTE ]

That snapper-head chaps my ass...
Takes my upgrades, trys adding a HEI module, screwed that, and declares himself the last word in the subject.

This is the same guy that posted the nightmare of wiring that was installed so poorly I didn't even bother to comment...

Then questions my motives? Fuc$ him with a jackhammer...
He better hope we never meet face to face, or Lucy will have some 'splainin' to do...
-------------

as for 'test' equipment, put the ignitions system in an environment chamber, add two atmospheres, moisture, exhaust gasses oil vapor, liquid oil and liquid fuel, maybe some inorganic compounds fused to the electrodes, then we'll talk.

I have that very chamber, called the 'Crusher'.
The name should pretty much describe what happens to 'Theory' when the hammer falls.
You are in Cal, get a hold of Craig Railsback, head tech geek at Blower Drive Service and see what he thinks of the Crusher...

[/ QUOTE ]

WEll now who needs to chill. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

I first found the large cap/rotor from seeing the Juice Box stuff on eBay and asking here. LEVE was kind enough to direct me to some old posts.

I have read lots of your old posts Aaron.

I do not proclaim to be an expert on anything. But I am cheap. It was not my idea to use the HEI module, I did post one time and ask if the TFI/HEI hybrid wouldn't be the best of both worlds. Someone (maybe RRich) posted a link to a page where exactly had been done. Then came John's Stealth idea - I copied it and like it.

Now you can continue to call me funny names or understand that most of the folks reading this don't want or need anything very fancy. Someone even said words to the effect that all this tech is great but what's the bottom line.

While I wasn't questioning your motives you do seem to be a bit touchy in that area. I was simply being sarcastic.

I would like to meet you. Too bad you couldn't have come to Haspin today for some wheeling. You are here in Indiana, come on out and you will be welcome.

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/40BEER.gif[/img]
Dale
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post #44 of (permalink) Old 09-11-2005, 10:10 PM
 
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Re: TFI and HEI what\'s the difference?




"Juice Box" was an incomplete 'Kit' thrown together by clowns, and featuring 'Dumb****astan' parts with directions that read like stereo instructions translated from Korean to Arabic to Russian to English (and I use the term 'English' loosely).

In the beginning they tried to pass it off as the 'TeamRush' upgrade, and I put a stop to that.
I'd never want my name, or any company name I have or work for associated with such shoddy work.

People work hard for their money, and they piss enough of it away without someone using my name to swindle them.

As for 'Sarcasm'...
All sarcasm will get you from me is a hard time on the net, and a bloody mouth in person.
I may be middle aged and out of shape, but I'm also an old school business man and former military man that believes the only thing you can count on is your name.
Smear it at your own risk...
------------------

As for the rest of you,
When I see some of your 'Upgrades', tried and tested, then you have the right to question, as long as you do it respectfully.

RRich, MSD gives NOTHING away. Everyone pays.
------------------

MSD gives away nothing anymore.
I can't even get extra boots and connectors and boots for plug wires anymore.
The reason I use MSD is because there simply isn't anything else that will hold a candle to the MSD 6 series module for under $200, like the MSD module sells for.

If you have MSD ads on your vehicle, you will get some contingency money in the national events. Local guys all use them and get nothing... Why, because nothing else works.

Every single winning NASCAR team for the last 8 years has been running MSD, and at their own expense. MSD doesn't give any freebies to NASCAR teams. They don't have to...
The product is just that good.
In fact, they run 6 Series modules and carbs, because NASCAR doesn't allow computers to control anything on the vehicle. (computers for data collection only)
I've seen some Jacobs blue in the NASCARS, but they have yet to place in the top 10, and until last month, they had yet to complete a race on the lead lap. (even a blind pig finds an acorn once in a while)
BTW, Jacobs 'New Technology' is actually MSD's 6 series module, right down to the last resistor... The patent ran out for MSD, now everybody is knocking them off... Why? because they work and very little else does.

NHRA doesn't allow computers, but they all use MSD because it works.
I've seen Jacobs and Mallory stickers stuck right on top of MSD components because Jacobs or Mallory or who ever is sponsoring, but the team knows MSD is the ONLY ignition that can be relied on...
--------------------

As for the cabbage head that can't grasp the idea of 6 sparks being better than one (maybe, if the induction ignition fires at all...) at idle to 3,500 RPM, I can't help him.
If he doesn't get it by now, he never will, and I know better than to try and teach a pig to sing...
(annoys the pig and wastes my time)
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post #45 of (permalink) Old 09-12-2005, 11:18 AM
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Re: TFI and HEI what\'s the difference?

I think your insults were directed at me! If you want to meet, come on out.

We'll drop by a few NASCAR tracks and count the number of cars running MSD. There are some still in the dark ages, but not all.
I'll have a few friends give you some of the MSD's they were given - for free - who knows if they came directly from MSD or a distributor.
Maybe in your state they don't pay contigency, but here they do. I made more in "side pay" than I did in purses running Sprint cars.

The popular ignitions here - at least the front runners - are using that one made in Germany - I don't remember the name - it's a DIS.

When I owned a F1 chassis shop - we built the chassis, not the entire car - I don't remember seeing ANY F1's using the MSD. They were all DIS.

As far as YOUR upgrade - using the larger cap on the smaller distributor - do you really think Ford made a boo boo and let it fit the smaller distributors by accident?

Do you really think you were the first to discover that it could be done?

Why do you claim it's YOURS?

Maybe you were the very first to notice it, but I think it was in the 70's I started doing it for customers cars when I was upgrading to a remote HEI module - to get better spark than a duraspark. That was before TFI existed. The first few I had to make a device to hold the "in cap" coil, as the remote HEI coils didn't exist - yet. The remote E coil made it nice. TFI came along later.

All your previous posts indicated you still use the resistor in the Duraspark. If you used any type of test equipment - even just a simple visible spark gap you'd see the difference.

Posts by others here that used the TFI coil without the resistor to take advantage of the hotter spark, but still used the DS - complained of the DS modules and coils running hot, then failing. Running the resistor did not give a performance increase - unless something was defective initially and it got replaced in the process. Do a search!

But then by your own words, you can't seem to get your "dual" ignition "switch between them" Jeep running right - with either DuraSpark or HEI. Interesting that millions of stock Fords and GM's are running around running right.
Or was that just a fantasy? Pics?

I had some thoughts on why your dual system is breaking down, I did a little experimenting myself yesterday. Yes, the scope showed me instantly what was happening. But I'll let the "self proclaimed" (no ego there) "Genious" figure it out.

If you want to discuss things on a technical level, fine. If you just want to rant and rave, contradict yourself constantly, and make up stories I'll not waste my time answering. Others can make their own decisions. Everything I've said is easily provable - with simple test methods - sometimes by driving it, sometimes with simple test equipment.

Your tag line, maybe you need more of it?
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post #46 of (permalink) Old 09-12-2005, 11:59 AM
 
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Re: TFI and HEI what\'s the difference?

Not directed at you unless you were the one directly attacking character.
I thought that was the guy that doesn't want to pay more than junk yard price for anything...

As for F-1, COMPUTER CONTROLLED CARS...
All the Ignition, Fuel Management, Electronics are hand built by FACTORY ENGINEERS.
F-1 Cars are FACTORY TEST BEDS.

DIS... Distributorless Ignition System, Or did you miss something?
Distributorless Means NO DISTRIBUTOR... A single crank trigger or counting flywheel teeth...
(I started to explain how it works, but that's pointless here...)
Usually computer controlled coil pack ignitions with one coil for every two cylinders.
With out Capacitive Discharge, this is a cheap way to lengthen coil saturation times in normal inductive ignitions.
More coils equals more time for each one to charge.
It's a low budget way for the factory to get around using CD ignitions.

I've built an all mechanical Distributorless ignition system before, but for more than two cylinders (like Harley) it's a pain in the ass and completely impractical...

You can't read...
I said I BROUGHT the Motorcraft Upgrade to the BBS, and the Jeeping community in general.
I NEVER CLAIMED I INVENTED, DESIGNED or INSTALLED THE IGNITION SYSTEMS IN JEEPS...

The Pictures you ask about are on the internet right now, and have been for a couple of months, but you don't read or follow links...

I'm posting all of the low budget upgrades and following all of the general testing on the web site...
Not my fault you and the others skim over the posts or don't understand what you are reading....

Want to keep running your mouth? I just figured out who you were...
And I still have the information on you here somewhere, I think I saved it to disk, so I'm sure it's still around here...
RME... Correct? Richard I. Motts... Yup, I know who you are now...
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post #47 of (permalink) Old 09-12-2005, 02:43 PM
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Re: TFI and HEI what\'s the difference?

Gee, there seems to be a question of Semantics here.

You said: """"That snapper-head chaps my ass...""""

Thought it was directed at me. Whoever it was directed to, it's not nice. This place is for information sharing, we all can learn something here. Pirate is the place to insult folks.

It hit me - irritated me, my response wasn't nice either. I applogize.

Now for the meat of it - The semantics - what was written vs what was meant.
You said: """""""""""Takes my upgrades, trys adding a HEI module, screwed that, and declares himself the last word in the subject."""""

Just now you said:
""""I said I BROUGHT the Motorcraft Upgrade to the BBS, and the Jeeping community in general.
I NEVER CLAIMED I INVENTED, DESIGNED or INSTALLED THE IGNITION SYSTEMS IN JEEPS...""""

I guess the words got mixed in the ether?

I HAVE installed several big cap upgrades, along with several HEI modules in the last few months. And a few MSD's. I've also done several years ago, but I'm not sure I ever did a Jeep then.

Yes, RME.

Yes, DIS is short for "Distributorless Ignition System," or sometimes it's short for "Direct Ignition System."

Yes, the advantage of having much more time to charge, then discharge the coils is obvious. Aftermarket DIS systems have been around a long long time, OEM recently discovered it.

F1 - Formula 1 cars. Not OEM prototypes. OEM's learn from it, often even offer engineering, equipment or parts.
What we had in our shop was usually partially built systems, we'd design the chassis around the equipment to the customer's requirments. Sometimes we'd be working on the finished car too. Gotta admit, that was not a profitable business!



As far as your "dual" ignition - did a bit of experimenting yesterday.

Fabbed a Y coil wire - to be able to feed from 2 different coils. One a Ford coil, the other the HEI remote E coil. Customer's YJ, stock Ford module/pick-up coil. He gave me permission to experiment, he was really in to get a little welding done - cracks in the frame etc..

Attaching the the Y coil wire to both coils did not seem to make any difference - but the HEI coil was still not connected other than the Y coil wire.
Connected the + side of the HEI coil to +12 volts. Oops, Duraspark output voltage increased! Had the scope on it monitoring available voltage.

Hmm, realized on BOTH coils, the bottom end of the secondary winding is tied to the + side of the primary! That's so it can multiply the output like a flyback or auto transformer.

The act of putting the 12 volts on the HEI fed that full 12 volts to the Duraspark coil!
So obviously the power sources to the + side of the coils - whther resistor or not - need to be switched off on the unused one - not just the power to the module, but to the + side of the primary. Need 2 a pole switch to do that.

Disconnected the 12 volts to the HEI coil. Back to normal.

Now I hooked up the HEI module to the (-) side of the coil. Module was grounded properly, although with a clip lead.

Available voltage (still running on the DS) dropped way down! But I still hadn't powered the HEI module yet! It's supposedly would be turned off without main power.

I suppose the + getting to the + side of the coil through the Y coil wire was enough to turn on the HEI Module through the (-) side, at least partially. That then was grounding the secondary through the primary - or something. HEI module still had no power directly to it! Ran OK at idle, but fell on it's face trying to accelerate.

OK, another pole on the switch, one to cut off power to each coil +, one to cut off power to the modules and one to disconnect the (-) coil leads. 3 poles needed now.

OK, works now, both systems. I can switch between them with no ill effects. To this point I was manually swapping over the input from the PU wires. Still not a true "comparison" while driving.

Now for the inputs. Tried connecting both wires to both modules. Found that BOTH wires need to be disconnected from the module not in use. Disconnecting just one wire wasn't enough! Else the PU coil output was severely reduced, what was left was just barely able to trigger either module! Too much load on the PU to drive the one in use properly.

That necessitates even 2 more poles on that switch! Giving 5! That's an unusual switch!

Double throw switch:
1. One double throw pole to switch module main power on and off to each module one at a time. Disables the module not in use.
2. Another double pole to connect/disconnect the (+) primary side of each coil to prevent backfeeding.
3. A third double throw pole to connect/disconnect the (-) side of each coil, one at a time to prevent loading by the unused coil.
4,5. 2 contacts more to switch BOTH PU coil wires to the module to be used.

Obviously I didn't have a switch that complicated. Radio Shack didn't either.

Switching the high tension coil wire instead of using the Y would would make it simple, but a switch to swich over that much voltage? $$$$$

Wow, getting complicated!
Each ignition system worked fine when independant, but if any of the above was still connected, it barely got out of it's own way!

Test equipment used to "see" what the voltages were doing: One old worn out Sun ignition analyzer (a pos.)
One lab scope.
One DVM.
Several test drives, some not even out of the driveway!

Maybe this should give you some insight on why neither of yours works right.

He He - I learned something -- just not sure what yet!
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post #48 of (permalink) Old 09-12-2005, 03:09 PM
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Re: TFI and HEI what\'s the difference?

is the + postive of is the - positive on my battery?
[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]








[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headspin.gif[/img]

sorry... must be loosing it after reading all this.... only thing I know after reading allthat is that the [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scs.gif[/img]
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post #49 of (permalink) Old 09-12-2005, 07:25 PM
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Re: TFI and HEI what\'s the difference?

[ QUOTE ]
As for the cabbage head that can't grasp the idea of 6 sparks being better than one (maybe, if the induction ignition fires at all...) at idle to 3,500 RPM, I can't help him.
If he doesn't get it by now, he never will, and I know better than to try and teach a pig to sing...
(annoys the pig and wastes my time)

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume this was directed at me. If so you can go f-yourself d-head. Please go back and read my post. What I ment was I find it very hard to believe you could tell the difference driving down the road with a HEI or MSD. I never said one wasn't better than the other. It's like these people who put in a K&N filter and claim they can feel the power increase. The K&N is better for performance, but do you actually think it is noticable, I simply don't believe it.
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post #50 of (permalink) Old 09-12-2005, 11:18 PM
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Re: TFI and HEI what\'s the difference?

OK folks lets drop the name calling and other NONE PRODUCTIVE CRAP.

Aaron (Team Rush/Junk Yard Genius) you can call me all the names you please - I don't much care. Another thing that I just don't care about is your old p'n match with RRich

If you want to go toe to toe, kewl.... At 51 years old I'm still just juvenile enough to take you up on it if you think there's something to be gained, convince me.

The thought of two old out of shape fools swinging at each other gives me a really good belly laugh. I'm sure that I can find someone to video tape it and absolutely no issue with posting the video up after.

Back to my comment on something to be gained, at least for this BBS, I have a much better challenge for you:

1. Set aside your ego and thin skinned attitude along with everything you know about automotive systems.
2. Put on the boots of the original poster (and many many readers).
3. Read the profile of the original poster, his BBS nick is not what he's working on (it's a 1982 California CJ-7 w/258)
4. Go back to the top of this thread, click "Show All" and read the original post as well as every reply top to bottom with your new found perspective. Don't pass over those "Junk Yard Genius" posts - you have to read them again using a very different life experience.

Be sure to keep that same perspective while you are reading, you don't know anything about ignition systems and came here to get some ideas about how you might work through some upgrade and you don't even know what it's going to be.

Then after you are done looking through those eyes I want you to tell me how this thread looks.

Where did the good information - backed up by details and facts with links to help that original poster find parts/part numbers, wiring diagrams, comparisons come from?

And what do you think about the rest of the flack written?

Did the thread help you as beginner start looking toward a particular solution? Or was there just a new version of some old argument that you don't understand dead in the middle of the road that you couldn't get around or over?

Now if you score well on this little test.... I'll show you how to try and sell your $249 ($205 from Jegs) MSD 6 systems, with links and fact sheets that clearly show the multiple spark feature goes to 3,000 to 3,500 RPM depending on the model MSD 6. By the way NO ONE EVER SAID THAT THE MSD 6 IGNITION ISN'T BETTER (if you have a motor worth putting it on).

Actually there are many things I might be able to show you just because I have a very different view, maybe you should consider that along the way. Naw - what could you learn from a "snapper-head"?

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/40BEER.gif[/img]
Mr. Snapper-Head
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