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post #1 of (permalink) Old 08-22-2004, 03:31 AM
mxgengo
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Torx Problem

I resently purchased an 89' Wrangler and went to replace the rotted winshield cowl. Seemed easy enough, until I encountered various problems with the torx bolts. When breaking the bolts free, most of them didn't break free from the nut, the nut broke free from the inside of the winshield frame. Now they just spin! So my questions are:

1) How do I get them out?
2) Since there is no nut on the inside of the assembly, how do I reattach??
! [img]images/graemlins/cussing.gif[/img]
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post #2 of (permalink) Old 08-22-2004, 07:35 AM
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Re: Torx Problem

What the heck? That's never happened before! Not!

On a CJ you get them apart with a 5/16" drill bit; I think it's the same on a Wrangler. Start with a light feed pressure until the Torx socket is drilled out. If the drilling spins the thing, you have to get up in there with needle nose Vice Grips and grab the nut. There's no easy way out - you have to move stuff out of the way until you can get there. I guess that there's a lot more stuff to move on a Wrangler.

To put it back together you can just use a regular nut and washer. It's a pain to get under there but it can be done. The new windshield frame should already have the nuts in it.

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post #3 of (permalink) Old 08-22-2004, 07:53 AM
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Re: Torx Problem

Yep, just like JimLou said. Just got finished doing the same thing with my CJ......don't waste your time trying to figure out a better way.......just drill em out. You'll be time ahead and the nuts aren't too hard to get to on the back side. Good luck.
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post #4 of (permalink) Old 08-22-2004, 10:42 AM
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Re: Torx Problem

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
To put it back together you can just use a regular nut and washer.

[/ QUOTE ]

I’m shocked! SHOCKED I say! [img]images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] [img]images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] [img]images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

A member with an entire stainless steel <nobr>Jeep</nobr> body recommending REGULAR nuts and bolts. Use stainless.

Of course to Jim, stainless may be “regular”.
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post #5 of (permalink) Old 08-22-2004, 11:44 AM
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Re: Torx Problem

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Of course to Jim, stainless may be “regular”.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I was thinking of configuration, as in "a regular hex-head bolt and hex nut."

That would be a good application for stainless, but if you do use stainless fasteners, be sure to put anti-sieze on them before assembly. Stainless fasteners can gall when tightened unless there's a lubricant on the threads. Then they're as bad as rusted bolts to get apart. [img]images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]
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post #6 of (permalink) Old 08-22-2004, 12:09 PM
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Re: Torx Problem

I would use anti-sieze on all bolts.
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post #7 of (permalink) Old 08-22-2004, 12:51 PM
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Re: Torx Problem

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
I would use anti-sieze on all bolts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not quite ALL bolts. The FSM says to use red Locktite (721?) on the steering box mount bolts. Initially I put anti-sieze on them but they worked loose very quickly. The second time I used anti-sieze and safety wire, but they still loosened until the safety wire was bowstring tight. The third time I built a brace to the opposite frame rail, used red Locktite AND safety wire AND new star lock washers AND new bolts AND tightened them until surrounding metal turned pink (actually, to FSM recommendations.) So far, so good.
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post #8 of (permalink) Old 08-22-2004, 02:29 PM
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Re: Torx Problem

Actually no threaded fastener should ever go on dry. Anti-sieze, light oil, or thread locker, even water in a pinch.
Reason is the resistance when tightening makes you torque it loose. The "turning resistance" is not clamping force but you feel or measure it as torque. Concievably you could tighten a fastener to torque spec and still have it loose - no clamping force at all.
Wet with "something" reduces the turning resistance, letting you "feel" the clamping effort.

Think about it - a split or star lock washer when torqued down goes flat. Flat it does nothing more than a flat washer. On the way down it often galls the metal, causing you to tighten against a burr - a phoney tightness. Try one on aluminum to see the burr. Steel does the same only not as much.
The only time they do any locking is when they are loose.
Why would you want to lock it when you put it on loose to begin with?

Nylocks or any locknut, or with thread locker!
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post #9 of (permalink) Old 08-22-2004, 03:12 PM
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Re: Torx Problem

That point about a lock washer effectively turning into a flat washer is something I've pondered on several occasions. The only thought I can offer is that, due to the way the washer is formed, it acts like a ratchet in the tighten direction. Split lockwashers aren't split perpendicular to the plane of the washer, they're split at an angle that forms a knife edge on each side of the split. That edge is oriented so that the metal will pass over it more easily during tightening than loosening.

The points on a star lock washer are twisted the same way, so that the nut will slide over the edges of the star during tightening, but dig in when it's loosened.

That would mean that the lock washer doesn't really come into play until the fastener starts to back off. That might suggest that it won't help keep the joint tight, but if it starts working with only a couple degrees of reverse rotation, that shouldn't really result in a loose nut - it just allows a little of the stretch (preload) out of the bolt. One would hope that the engineers who figure out such stuff have that worked into the torque tables.

And the burr you mention is something I've seen many times, but dug up in the reverse direction, not forward.

If they really didn't do anything, Generous Motors wouldn't keep buying them and putting them on their vehicles.

You're absolutely right, of course, about the lubricated threads. Every torque spec I've ever seen has a footnote something like "Clean, undamaged threads lubricated with a light film of oil."
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post #10 of (permalink) Old 08-22-2004, 07:14 PM
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Re: Torx Problem

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
No, I was thinking of configuration, as in "a regular hex-head bolt and hex nut."

[/ QUOTE ]





<font color="red"> “The devil made me do it.”</font color>
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