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post #1 of (permalink) Old 04-11-2003, 04:35 PM Thread Starter
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OT Read this (Iraq)

Read this Iraq leadership.

Don't miss the felon part.
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post #2 of (permalink) Old 04-11-2003, 05:37 PM
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Re: OT Read this

Well here we go again. We put a felon into power then 5 -10 yrs later [img]images/graemlins/AR15firing.gif[/img] [img]images/graemlins/AR15firing.gif[/img] [img]images/graemlins/AR15firing.gif[/img] [img]images/graemlins/thud.gif[/img] We gotta run him out. Haven't we been there, done that and got bloody doing it?


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post #3 of (permalink) Old 04-11-2003, 05:52 PM
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Re: OT Read this

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
We put a felon into power

[/ QUOTE ]1. IMHO... if President Bush does it right...
2. He won't put anyone in power...
3. He'll let the population of Iraq put who they want in power...
4. To me that's just one of the definition's of Freedom.
5. Oh, yeah, Ahmed Chalabi was convicted in absentia in a Jordanian Court,
6. In the Petra Bank Scandal,
7. To a 34 year sentence.
8. For money siphoning.
9. It may not be a bad idea to read
10. Amnesty International - Summary of Report - MDE 16/11/98
11. JORDAN AN ABSENCE OF SAFEGUARDS.
12. He wasn't extradited to Jordan...
13. Even during the Clinton Years.
14. Methinks somethings rotten in Jordan...
15. Or he would have been...
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post #4 of (permalink) Old 04-11-2003, 11:38 PM
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Re: OT Read this

Indeed, LEVE!

Most of us consider that neck of the woods the home of the "crazy camel jockeys". .

......but oddly enough .. Iraq ...just before Sadam took power ..was the soul of Arab democracy. Remember ...Sadam was elected ...then calmly executed his competition as his very first act.


Iraq by all Arab standards is a most liberal society. The women wear pants ...can be educated. They listen to American music and watch American movies.

Iraq is NOT an Islamic country. It is a Muslim majority country. The distinction being that in an Islamic country ..... you may worship any way you choose (traditionally)...but can obtain NO POWER unless you are Muslim. There are Christian Iraqis and , up until the first Gulf War, Jewish Iraqis (they were expelled at that time by Sadam). Iraq was part of the carving up of the Ottoman Empire after WWII .........hence we have people of different beliefs and traditions that were falsely maintained at peace (and therefore in close proximity) with each other by colonialism ...then they had borders artificially imposed upon them that seperated like peoples (the Kurds in Turkey and Iraq - at time "one people") and thrust others together (the post missionary Christains and resident Muslims in the Sudan) ...........throw OIL in the mix and you've got a pretty volatile mixture that boils over from time to time.

The real challenge is yet to come in that country. Many ...many people are already jockeying for a piece of the power that can be had in this chaos.

Let's hope that this little exercize in assertive deplomacy is a lesson that can be learned by the regional trouble makers. I hope that they can control the inherent ambition that seems to plague the region with perpetual conflict.


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post #5 of (permalink) Old 04-12-2003, 01:33 AM
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Re: OT Read this (Iraq)

Well I usually let this kind of stuff pass, but since Americans are dieing to put a new regiem in place in Iraq....

1 - Not new leadership, just a guy voicing his opinion. Maybe we should make sure people don't do that in Iraq. We could put a whole security force in place to make sure people only voice what GW wants them to say. Oh, wait, even GW doesn't want that.

2 - "After he led the Petra Bank in Jordan, a court convicted him in absentia of embezzlement", boy, where to start here, the Jordanian court system, or the Jordanian banking system. Let me just say that the corruption in the Jordanian banking system is so bad that you can not wire money directly to Jordan from a US bank (Not by law, but by internal rule within US banks).

I don't know what this guy is about, but if he wants to take a swing at post war Iraq, go fer it. Not many Ivy league types wading into that swamp.

Of course it is always easier to point to the problems than to point out the solutions.

post #6 of (permalink) Old 04-12-2003, 10:26 AM
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Re: OT Read this

In Arab history, Sunni, Shi'a, Jew and Christian lived together peacefully. Don't assume that this isn't possible again. As Americans, we tend to view this through filters of the American South, Northern Ireland, Modern Israel. It cannot truly be measured this way. Check out "The multiple identities of the middle east" by bernard lewis. Very enlightening. It is written toward Americans, defining Arab identity through the filters most of us use. Lewis may be the foremost expert on the situation in this country.

True, Churchill screwed up by not slicing out Kurdistan when he had the chance. His grandson said last month on Crossfire that this one of the great regrets he took to the grave.

I have a hard time accepting Iraq as "liberal by Arab standards". I think that the US will strive for a system like the one being implemented in Qatar, where women not only can wear what they want, they can vote AND(big and) HOLD OFFICE. This is the ONLY Arab state where women can hold office. (Turkey is not an Arab state.)

The grand dream of the Bush administration is that the other oppressed nations in the middle east will look to the new, free Iraq, and strive to become free as well. The Bush admin. would be well served to turn the cameras upon Qatar, where sky scrapers outnumber mud huts, and point out that freedom is prosperous. Ask a hungry Russian why Communism fell. Clinton will be credited in the next fifty years with toppling China's communism by granting the Favored Trade Status. Capitalism cannot exist without freedom, and vice versa.
post #7 of (permalink) Old 04-12-2003, 12:40 PM
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Re: OT Read this

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
In Arab history, Sunni, Shi'a, Jew and Christian lived together peacefully.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Under Islamic idealogy, tolerance for other cultures was most favorable. This tenet of their idealogy made them the most advanced (technology and science) for quite some time. This priciple (of the free coexistance of mulitple cultures for the sake of learning) was adopted by western man and remained a model that was followed for over 5 centuries.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
I have a hard time accepting Iraq as "liberal by Arab standards".

[/ QUOTE ]


I assure you. Not only compared to "Arab" societies ...but Muslim majority (or Islamic "non- Arab" as in Pakistan for or a Muslim majority nation like Bangladesh) nations as well. Iraq's "social" composite is most liberal. They are a secular people. They elected a secular dictator into power. No Ayatola (sp?l) governed those actions as in some place like Iran. They did not, either before or after Sadam's Ba'ath party took control, live under Islamic law. Don't cofuse lifestyle with liberalism nor "social" makeup with the system under which they are governed. Saudi Arabia has a decent, but declining, standard of living for its people ...but only two paths of study are taught in its university ..for the men, Islamic studies ... for the women, liberal arts. That's why they import ALL their techical support people from every other nation. Perhaps you would agree if I said that they (Iraq) were a socially liberal people controlled under secular totalitarian rule. This may cause us to move closer to agreement. That is, although the society is liberal ...it didn't have many liberties (this is not a contradiction).

Qatar is only liberal to the extent that is a benevolent dictatorship. The Emire has been overthrown 3 times in recent history (if I recall correctly). Iraq, on the other hand, was very much a democracy and, aside from the ambition of its leaders, was a perfect model for future Arab states where, just like us, religion was not superimposed upon the governing of the people.

I'm unsure of GW's intent on this. I support this action even for the greed/need of liberating Iraqi oil on the world market. That, given the global vitality that WE generate (take a look at global trade figures. WE all but equal the entire planet. If we get cut ...EVERYBODY ELSE BLEEDS), the lack of economic expansion costs more in deaths JUST by the lack of third world trickle down economics .... let alone any noble and/or stategic "value added" items. It is nice to "feel good" about this thing though. That is, I'm convince that there is a good amount of "right" in this almost as much as I'm convinced that this was "necessary" for the benefit of the vast "many".

Success has made us the reluctant administrators for the betterment of the planet. We are on a race to replace warfare with consumerism. All wars are typically economic (or lack of a good economy) in nature. It is far less likely that people are going to fight when they have a job, a home, food, and education. The illusionary "infidel" vanishes into the background when you don't need someone to blame for your despair.
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post #8 of (permalink) Old 04-12-2003, 03:05 PM
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Re: OT Read this

GeeAea, I should have specified politicly vs. socially when discussing the liberal nature of Iraq. I agree with everything you said regarding the society of Iraq.

I predict that the current Qatari emir will not be overthrown soon, if only because he has our backing. All I know of the situation in the country I learned from a piece on 60 minutes from a month ago. The Emir is pouring much of his own wealth(I may be wrong, it was over a month ago.) into the development of the infrastructure of his country. He is building a massive one billion dollar education complex, and has invited United states universities to establish satelite campuses(campi?). Cornell is installing a medical school in the complex. The base from which the US is operating was built by the Emir, in the hope that he could attract the US to base its military operations in the region from his country.

I do not mean to say that GW intends to reshape the Mid East. I meant that his admin.'s best case scenario for post invasion MidEast was the eventual fall of the Sauds, the Ayatollah(spell it phonetically, I guess), etc.

You and I are exactly on the same page on the whole thing, Geeaea.

Glad I'm not the only one who flips past Fox News.

here's a firestarter:

Want more peace in the world? The US should support Qaddafi's quest for a United States of Africa.
post #9 of (permalink) Old 04-12-2003, 05:40 PM
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Re: OT Read this

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
You and I are exactly on the same page on the whole thing

[/ QUOTE ]

That could be scary to some that I know. [img]images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

[img]images/graemlins/40BEER.gif[/img]
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