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post #1 of (permalink) Old 12-02-2002, 12:09 AM Thread Starter
 
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O/T - Diesel Liberty?

I read that Jeep is designing a diesel for use in the Liberty in 2004...anyone know anything else about this?
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post #2 of (permalink) Old 12-02-2002, 12:25 AM
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Re: O/T - Diesel Liberty?

I don't know anything about it, but I have heard it before some where. Wonder what kind of numbers it will put out, and why don't they put one in a TJ?
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post #3 of (permalink) Old 12-02-2002, 04:04 AM
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Re: O/T - Diesel Liberty?

About 140hp I've read somewhere, the new common-rail diesel engine is an improved design. The information at mercedes common rail might be of help. I just hope Cummins Inc. gets the PO to build them. This motor would be sweet cummins rail technology. However, the torque is nice, but matching it to the correct manual or auto tranny is key. I like diesel technology, but I don't think the U.S. general public is ready for it like they are across the pond, even with a 30% increase in mpg. I could be wrong.
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post #4 of (permalink) Old 12-02-2002, 08:09 AM
 
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Re: O/T - Diesel Liberty?

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
but I don't think the U.S. general public is ready for it like they are across the pond, even with a 30% increase in mpg

[/ QUOTE ]

Well the US is not geared for diesel like across the pond for one thing!!

Diesel stations are not as readily available [img]images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]
Diesel service is VERY expensive [img]images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]
Diesels are noisy, smelly. [img]images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
Diesel fuel consumption is not as good as claimed. [img]images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

With all that in mind the cost of buying Diesel, the up keep expenses, and the limited resources available. Diesel is not really a good choice. Unless you have a need that can out way the extra cost involved in owning Diesel.

I have owned 2 Cummings diesels and loved them both but the costs incurred were not worth it for daily drivers. For an RV....That's another story ,,,,!!
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post #5 of (permalink) Old 12-02-2002, 09:51 AM
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Re: O/T - Diesel Liberty?

There won't be too much mass apeal for diesels. I'd love one.

Diesel is available everywhere ...just not as conveniently located as gasoline. I can go to over a dozen places locally ...but probably only one or two 24 hour and I will pay a premium for it compared to regular..


The two diesels that I owned, a 79 VW and an 80 Peugeot 504 wagon, got superior fuel economy compared to comparable gasoline counterparts (over 50 for the VW and 29 for the 504) and got it all the time (very little variation between highway and mixed driving). I operated both in an owner/operator priority courier service and typically drove over 350 miles per day 5 days a week.

As far as service being expensive. Well it's a mixed bag. Those engines required more oil changes than any comparable gasoline engine. Both required 3500 drain intervals. But aren't most of you guys here of the 3 month/3000 mile crowd anyhow? Now OUT OF WARRANTY work could be expensive .........but how often are you going to need that .... and if adopted by a major US automaker who (speaking of the general public) keeps their cars long enough to require major service?

I'd buy an oil burner in a minute. I'd love to have a TJ that actually got the mileage that it should (somewhere around 25).

I find it hard to believe that you didn't think the Cummins was good for a daily driver. You are AT LEAST looking at a (near) 50-60% difference in fuel economy between the Cummins and any V8 with anywhere near the same capabilities. Admittedly I haven't owned one. but I've have a couple of "horse women" that typically get between 18-19 mpg out ot theirs and don't have it change much when towing a gooseneck loaded (a medium duty flatbed at the local feed company gets 13 mpg consistantly with the cummins). I can't imagine my old BBC 2WD C20 doing it at a rate greater than 8 mpg and it would never have the mastery of the load that the Cummins has. Even as a daily driver I don't know anyone who owns a full size pickup with any sizeable V8 that gets (in reality) more than 10-12 mpg (no one really drives at the speeds you need to to achieve any good numbers). Since the Cummins is around a $3500 option it may take you around 5 or 6 years to make it pay (the average vehicle ownership is around 7 years) .......but where would you rather spend your money ...in a $60 higher payment ...or an ADDITIONAL $25-35 per week at the gas station? The Cummins is also warranted for 100,000 miles (at least it was) ...and that should give you enough time to work out any long term bugs.

Now if you're buying it used ..and have an unknow condition from a previous owner??? That's a different story. You could be paying double duty if you can't service it yourself. In that case the previous owner sapped all the equity out of the powerplant and left you with the hassles ....but if purchased new you would have reaped all the benefits out of an engine, if maintained properly, should have been running long after the fenders had fallen off whatever chassis it was installed in.
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post #6 of (permalink) Old 12-02-2002, 11:23 AM
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Re: O/T - Diesel Liberty?

)I live in Europe...
Diesel technology has gone VERY far away from where it was some 10-15 years ago. In those very popular (here) GT competitions the Diesels have overtaken the 1st place!
As for the big SUVs (and Jeeps), we have had a lot of diesels here, except the Wrangler series. [img]images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]
The 1st Jeep I had, the '89 XJ, was a diesel. Liberty, ine Europe STILL being called "Cherokee" (the DC actually calls it Cherokee, nt Liberty!) came with one diesel and one gas engine. I drove the diesel (for a mile or two only), it was 3.5L engine. Unbeliveable torque (diesels have very low minimum, they never run as high as gas engines - I think the "red" RPM area begins a bit before 5000).
Now, MPG... If you take ANY diesel engine and compare it with ANY gas engine of the same size, the MPG ratio is AT LEAST 30% better on the diesel. Example: a friend with 3.5L turboDiesel does exactly 34% more road than I do with my 2.5L gas. Plus, the diesel here costs less (per litre, per gallon, however you like it) than gas.
The WERE loud... now they run like gas engines (well, there is slight difference, but that's it - SLIGHT).
And last, but not least... they last SO MUCH longer! People in Europe, when given a choice of the same car (Jeep [img]images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]), only difference being diesel/gas, they stop to think of it like this: will I change it soon (5 yrs max) or am I going to keep it? Am I going to make a lot of road, or not so much?
And if they wanna hold on their new car longer &amp; consume less, they'll take diesel.
Let me be clear - I have a gas engine, and I like it. Not that I had a choice, buying a Wrangler. But if I had choice...

Anyway, there's one BIG (read: BIG) problem with diesel: the low temperatures. Maybe you didn't think of it? When temps get low, under 32F (maybe not right there, but at some 5 and lower), be SURE that overnight the paraphine (called like that in english, too?) tends to become jelly and it separates from the fuel -- engine won't run! OK, you can always put some additive in it, but I tested the "guaranteed" aditive on a turbodiesel XJ and... Well, let's just say I had double dose in the tank. Single dose was to protect up to -30F. That night, temp went at -32. It is lower than prescribed, but come on! 2 degrees! To cut it short, I was out. Had to hitch a ride, and to pull the XJ on the sunny parking lot, to let the sun raise the tank temp.
In the afternoon it was OK.
Solution exists, but it's not actually the healthiest one: you put 5% of gas on the full tank of diesel. It mixes and prevents jellying of the paraphine. Engine runs faster, stronger with 5% of gas in it, but I wouldn't swear it's actually the best thing for the engine.

And, of course, the construction of the engine itself... Diesels have much more of compression that gas ones have. So they are built thicker, heavier... It helps the engine stay in good shape for a very long time...

An example... At these parts here, you'll se A LOT of old diesels. Old gas engines? A little, very few. But it is not rare to run across diesels that have well over 400k km (well over 250k miles) on them, with no engine repairs, still running normally. People actually changed everything else, from the starter, tires, oil, etc... everything, but the engine block, cilynders, pistons etc still work like new (well, ALMOST new).
If you see a gas-driven car with 100k miles, you say "well, it has some decent mileage on it". For a diesel with the same mileage, you say "well it's nothing, it's a diesel".

Not to mention that those [email protected] that run the mileage down to sell a car can run a diesel from 200k miles to 120k and you'd have to be VERY luck &amp; very freakin good mechanic to see it... if you do it on a gas one... from 200k to 120k... even a baby'd see it

If I had an option of buying a diesel-YJ, I'd go for it. If nothing else, I could get 3.5L that has the same MPG as the 2.5L gas. But with some 80HP more. Stock. Add K&amp;N. Add chip. Add exhaust &amp; muffler... we're looking at over 150HP more with the same MPG!!! And add that diesel still costs less per gallon...


post #7 of (permalink) Old 12-02-2002, 11:27 AM
 
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Re: O/T - Diesel Liberty?

I did love the cummins and it was good on MPG,, just not what it was stated it would be. The 1st was on a new 92 Dodge Ram and the second was on a new 98 Dodge Ram. Both were great trucks other than couldn't keep a tranny behind the diesel.

The problems I had was, when the 92 was new, there were considerable less places to get fuel. So you had to make extra consestions to get the fuel. Yes the milage was good and the power was outstanding but I had no real use for it. The only thing that I pulled was my Jeep, and I did that with the motorhome.

The service costs were $80.00 some odd for an oil change with filters. Service was considerable less for the gassers as I did that all myself. I know I could have done the diesel too but hey I'm not familiar with them and didn't want to get in over my head and cost more $$$$ to get out [img]images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

As to the MPG I get 24 mpg out of my Crown Vic and thats good for me, no smelly diesel or rattle rattle noise that makes the wife happy.
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post #8 of (permalink) Old 12-02-2002, 07:20 PM
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Re: O/T - Diesel Liberty?

Seems I just read something about D/C buying a diesel engine company. That would probably have something to do with it.
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