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**DONOTDELETE** 09-30-1999 12:49 PM

Tank Heater???
 
Can a guy install a tank heater on a 84 I-258?????
The people that make the tank heater say no.


CJDave 09-30-1999 02:19 PM

Re: Tank Heater???
 
[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif[/img] Are we talking about a coolant heating device here Gregg? One that goes in an outside loop? [img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif[/img]

CJDave

**DONOTDELETE** 09-30-1999 06:03 PM

Re: Tank Heater???
 
Yes it is. Runs coolant to heater from the lower block heats it and
drops it back in the top of the block.
Have a 2000 watt on a small block chev. and it will melt the snow
right out of the engin compartment. If it is not below 0 better at 10 to 15 deg. it will keep
the heat gage off the peg. Warm air will be there at start up.Best to run full time at work only part time at home.[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif[/img]


CJDave 09-30-1999 10:44 PM

Re: Tank Heater???
 
[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] I sure see a lot of those on standby generators. I did mention a while back, however, that they don't work all that good on "V" configuration engines. I cannot imagine what the problem is with the I-258? The tank heaters are strictly thermo-siphon right? No pump, right? [img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

CJDave

xjy173 09-30-1999 10:54 PM

Re: Tank Heater???
 
We have these type of heaters on our stand by generator sets at the hospital where I work. In fact, one is installed on a small 30KW set that is made by Generac. The engine is a natural gas fired GM 350cid(5.7L) V-8. The heater works great as the set is out in the open on the roof.


**DONOTDELETE** 10-01-1999 08:51 AM

Re: Tank Heater???
 
[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif[/img]<font color=red>Yes a tank heater is a thermo-siphon and no pump.
They use to be used alot on V engines and worked fine. The trend
is to go to soft plug heaters where you take out the soft plug and
put a heating device in the hole. Cheaper to do, cheaper to run.
Don't dry your heater hoses out as fast as a tank heater. Even on a tank heater hoses still will last a long time. On V engines
most of the time they only put soft plug heaters in one bank of the engine. Seems
to me this would be the worst way to heat up a V engine. Have this on
a V-8 myself and it works ok but there is not the heat out put that
a tank heater can put out.
On a 258 I-6 therer would have to be a pipe plug in the lower part of the
block to put a nipple in the lower water jacket for a heater hose to tank
heater then to one or the other side of your heater hoses.
I don't know if there is a way to tap into the lower water jacket
of a 258 or not.


CJDave 10-01-1999 10:37 PM

Re: Tank Heater???
 
[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif[/img] I just did a generator test today on a 6-71 Jimmy Diesel with a tank heater on it. The heater wasn't working, but the Jimmy blasted to life without it since the ambient was 85 degrees. We are using dual soft-plug heaters in our 304. We got them from Think Jeep. Never even considered using just one. Now we got to find a good oil heater. Got any suggestions?? [img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

CJDave

xjy173 10-02-1999 05:50 AM

Re: Tank Heater???
 
Hey Dave,
Sorry can't help you much on the oil heater. It gets cold here in Philadelphia, but not THAT cold. We use heaters on our generator sets because they are required to start on the first try and be up to full voltage in 7-10 seconds(it is a hospital application). As a precaution, we use the heaters year round. Did you have any wet stacking problems with that 6-71?

Jim


CJDave 10-02-1999 08:25 AM

Re: Tank Heater???
 
[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif[/img] No, the Jimmy really ran pretty good....even on startup. I have seen them slobber quite a bit though. So will Cats if you run them slow and cold. I do a LOT of work for healthcare, both thermographic surveys of the power system, and generator testing. I have one client that takes eleven days to inspect...huge complex...about ten generators on multiple power zones. They just installed twin Caterpillar V-16's in a paralleling arrangement. An awesome setup. Their oldest one is a FAirbanks Morse 1200 RPM in line NA Diesel. An oldie but a goodie. I just love to run that old chucker.
Actually, the Jimmies are going to disappear. The old two-strokers can no longer meet emission rules, and they have a new four-stroke Jimmy now. If the truth were known, the two-stroke engines follow the load better because they fire twice as many times. Well, back to my oil heater search......[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

CJDave

**DONOTDELETE** 10-10-1999 02:07 AM

Re: Tank Heater???
 
[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif[/img]What faster or slower to respond??
The govener or the engine [img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

The trouble with oil heaters IMHO is that a lot of them
get to hot in one small place and will break down the oil
to fast. I have a dipstick oil heater and never have used
it for the fear of what it will do to the oil.{got it for next to
nothing at some end of season sale-never know might need it soom day;-]}
I have used a magnetic heater on the oil pan.Seems like it does not
get that hot when you put your hand where it has been on the oil pan.
I cannot remember they are like 100 to 300 watt so heat would be like the same size light bulb. Yes CJDave I know you already know that[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif[/img]


CJDave 10-10-1999 02:18 AM

Re: Tank Heater???
 
[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif[/img] Hmmm.... MOST governors are slower than the engines in my opinion. Actually the governor SYSTEM is slower. By the time the shaft loses RPM, the weights shift, the linkage moves, and the fuel lever tweaks, a lot of time has gone by. One reason I like the Jimmy Diesel for generator work is that with the two-stroke setup, you are never far from a cylinder firing. Jimmys are quick on the trigger.[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
Hmmm.....a magnetic oil pan heater.....not bad....seems safe enough. I must check that out. Thanks for the tip Gregg.[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif[/img]


CJDave

**DONOTDELETE** 10-10-1999 05:13 AM

Re: Tank Heater???
 
[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif[/img] I just can't get ahead of you CJDave[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
I agree with you that the gov is the slow link in the chain.
Hay but they are dam fast. All The ones I have worked with
are from any thing from the late 1930's to the early 1960's.
[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]Not the state of the art[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]
[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif[/img]Could not get you to back up on your two-stoke Jimmy's and you are
more than likely right[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]
<font color=red>This is not one of those moon man things with the Jimmy's



CJDave 10-10-1999 08:56 AM

Re: Tank Heater???
 
[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif[/img] The old timers claim that nothing follows a load like a short-stroke reciprocating steam engine. They are; so they claim; very quick on the trigger since the power comes to them externally.
Don't misunderstand, I am really a Caterpillar fan when you get right down to it; but I do like the GMC for those generator jobs where sudden and heavy changes in load will bog down a four-stroker. Besides, if it weren't for Jimmy Diesels, who would oil the roads? [img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif[/img] Lessee, now where is my ear protection...oh, here they are.[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Man that rattle is hard to take without some kind of protection.[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

CJDave

xjy173 10-10-1999 09:58 AM

Re: Tank Heater???
 
We also have a Detroit Diesel 90bhp 3cyl. powered fire pump at the hospital, Dave, governed at 3000rpm. Much, much louder than the 1800rpm Waukeshas or Cummins generators. A real screamer.

We also once had a reciprocating steam generator in the old boiler plant. Very reliable but, alas, gone the way of the dinosaurs.


**DONOTDELETE** 10-10-1999 12:44 PM

Re: Tank Heater???
 
Try www.engineheaters.com (Proheat Products)
They have oil heaters ranging from 125 watts up to 1000 watts. Theirs are the peel and stick kind that stick to the oil pan...heat radiates up into the oil and through the whole engine. They are very slick and they really stick to the oil pan very well...There is also a company whose name I'm forgetting that makes an oil heater that installs in the pan. You have to drill and tap a hole in the side of the oil pan...I can find their name if you want. Drop me an e-mail if you want their name...
Dean


CJDave 10-10-1999 03:15 PM

Re: Tank Heater???
 
[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] Was that a two stroke 90 BHP 3 cylinder? All the high speed stuff uses four valves per cylinder, all of which are exhaust valves of course. [img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif[/img]

CJDave

xjy173 10-10-1999 05:01 PM

Re: Tank Heater???
 
Yes, that Detroit 3cyl. is a two stroker and almost brand new. It was installed in 1996 and only has about 45hrs on it.


**DONOTDELETE** 10-10-1999 06:33 PM

Re: Tank Heater???
 
FarmJeep I think your on to something.
I still worry about over heating oil.


CJDave 10-10-1999 07:35 PM

Re: Tank Heater???
 
[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] You have good reason to worry. When I do generator test work, one of the things that I watch for is inadequate cooldown time. That is where the generator engine goes off load, and runs till the engine has cooled sufficiently. With four stroke turbocharged engines it takes a minimum of 8 minutes to get the turbo bearing box temp down below 300 degrees F. Once the engine shuts down, the heat from the hot end of the turbo soaks up the bearing section and now that oil flow has ceased, it cooks the oil down to coke, plugging up a portion of the bearing box, and if the cycle is repeated enough it eventually prevents oil flow altogether and the turbo fails. That's why you have to idle the rig for a while after coming off the interstate into Moe's Diner for some grub. [img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

CJDave

**DONOTDELETE** 10-10-1999 10:51 PM

Re: Tank Heater???
 
[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] Here I go CJDave going to talk way over my head.
When I have used a magnetic heater they do not stick good and
tight to the pan for a good heat path to the oil and when I have
used the magnetic heater it has been for somewhat short time frames.
And like I said you could put your hand on the pan where the heater
was.
If I not wrong oil starts to break down is around 240 deg.??????
So my thought is if you have a thin layer of say 300 deg in the
bottom of that pan that all the oil in that area is getting a little
broke down and a week of say heating of 20 hrs a day could do a job on
your oil. That could be 120 or more hrs a week of slowly working your
oil over.
I like the idea of heating the oil. But how do you keep the oil safe
from break down.
[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] I'm I getting paranoid[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif[/img]


CJDave 10-11-1999 06:53 AM

Re: Tank Heater???
 
[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] That is a very valid point, Gregg; and one worth considering. We all know that oil does not self-circulate worth diddly, and a localized hot spot is a very real possibility. For that reason, a coil directly in the pan may be a better way to go. Dipstick heaters work on the theory that there will be a small amount of transfer to the rest of the pan. Maybe dipstick heaters are not as Mickey Mouse as I first thought. I'm going to explore the web sites that I got from Farm Jeep and see how this shakes out.[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif[/img] We have certainly had a lot of posts on this subject.[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif[/img]

CJDave

LEVE 10-11-1999 06:59 AM

Post deleted by LEVE
 

CJDave 10-11-1999 07:09 AM

Re: Tank Heater???
 
[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/wink.gif[/img] I wuz thinking that I would have to use a percentage timer that cycled on-off-on-off all through the night?[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif[/img]

CJDave

**DONOTDELETE** 10-12-1999 10:14 PM

Re: Tank Heater???
 
[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif[/img] The 2000 watt heater on my old blue. Get up turn power on to heater
go get dress and get my eyes open. The truck warm to go.
[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif[/img] get to work with plugins and it plug in the truck and the
small eletric heater in the cab.<font color=red>E.M.F. CITY. At quiting time you got clear windows
and a warm seat to put your butt in and when that motor starts its warm
air out of vents[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Feels soooo good.[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Like you dave i'm afraid there be a big old coke spot in the oil pan.
I do like the idea of heating the oil up if there a way around the cooking
the oil.
[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif[/img]<font color=red>Problem, I'm getting to the amp limit of my pugins[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif[/img]


xjy173 10-12-1999 10:28 PM

Re: Tank Heater???
 
Instead of a timer, you could use a thermostatic control for the coolant heater. The ones we have for our gen sets are set to 110deg. F. Even in the dead of winter the engine and the room it's in is nice and warm. The engine starts first time, every time in 5 seconds. I know that the heaters and t'stats come in several voltages (120,208-220,277) single phase. You could plug in after you pull in to the garage and when the coolant cools down to 110, the heater kicks in to maintain temperature. When you get up in the morning, the engine temp would be 110. On generators, naturally, there is a lock out relay that kills the heater circuit when the engine is running but this is not necessary in your case.



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