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post #1 of (permalink) Old 04-14-2002, 12:55 AM
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OT gas mileage box

Ok, I have a story I heard from a guy about another guy that he used to see at flea markets. This guy was making these boxes out of half inch plate that mounted onto the exhast manifold. They had a fuel line that went to them and a float in the box so that only a little fuel would be in the box at a time. The output fuel line was placed higher than the level of fuel. When the engine heated up, you were supposed to switch a valve from your primary fuel line to your new little box thingy fuel line. The engine would then run on the evaporating fumes of the gas in the little box. Supposedly it allowed fuel mileage upin the 50-60 mpg area on large v8s.
Now I know that an engine can run on straight fumes and theoretically this little box thing might work, but would it be a total slug to drive if it even worked? Im just feeling a little skeptical and thought I would see what you all thought. The guy I heard the story from said that when the guy quit making then that no one else started and that he had seen the last of them a few years back. Its just one of those things that I think I need to see to believe
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post #2 of (permalink) Old 04-14-2002, 01:58 AM
 
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Re: OT gas mileage box

Hmm..

#1 he was assasinated by a petrolium company.. and the same will happen to you if you try.

#2 it was a farce, otherwise Chrysler/Ford/GM would have jumped on it.

#3 you just stumbled upon several million dollars and just shared it with someone on the BBS who is going to snake it from you.

either way it sould like you would be right about the sluggishness..

Technically both FI and a carb do what the box is doing.. vaporising or atomising the fuel into the air.
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post #3 of (permalink) Old 04-14-2002, 02:14 AM
 
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Re: OT gas mileage box

Don't forget the old caddy idea: the 8-6-4. 8 cylinders for accleration, down to 6 for cruising and 4 on the highway for mileage. Didn't work and was a maintanence nightmare.
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post #4 of (permalink) Old 04-14-2002, 06:40 AM
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Re: OT gas mileage box

[img]images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] It's true that engines run on gasoline VAPOR and not on liquid gasoline. That vaporization thing has been around since engines were first built. All sorts of intake manifold heaters have been designed into engines over the years. Wouldn't the setup that you mentioned require a PROPANE regulator instead of a carb? Or.....at least the dual-fuel setup that you have on a propane/gasoline powered rig? On propane stuff, the carb has an adapter that makes it work similar to Jacques Cousteau's scuba "demand" regulator whereas the engine sucks the diaphram open and gets a snort of propane.[img]images/icons/crazy.gif[/img] No suckeee no propaneee.[img]images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]
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post #5 of (permalink) Old 04-14-2002, 11:14 AM
 
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Re: OT gas mileage box

anyone seen the old british guy who runs his car on methane?

The guy has some condensing system in his garage.. he just shovels [censored] in there and it does the rest.
Then he picks up a bottle, loads it in the back of his car.. warms it up with gas, flips a switch and does a mad-max style get away with RPM's Speed and economy going off the gagues..

supposedly has alot of torque too.
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post #6 of (permalink) Old 04-14-2002, 03:18 PM
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Re: OT gas mileage box

I get 9mpg. Its the AMERICAN WAY! hehehe

-remy
post #7 of (permalink) Old 04-14-2002, 08:08 PM
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Re: OT gas mileage box

This is an interesting idea, I have heard it discussed before. Such as when a car runs out of gas there is a power boost for a couple seconds- running on pure vapor. My 8 mpg jeep doesen't though, it just dies.
This old guy used to work with me and he was an inventor of sorts, I have heard some refer to him as a genius but since he worked in construction with me that rules that out!!! Anyway he made a sawdust powered truck. I never saw it but he said there was a sawdust heater in the box with a duct out of it. The truck ran primarily on gas but when the sawdust got up to temp he would shut off the gas and run by sawdust fumes. Said it didn't have great range but interesting none the less.
Disclaimer- I did not see it with my own eyes but I believe him.
post #8 of (permalink) Old 04-15-2002, 02:41 AM
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Re: OT gas mileage box

I to have noticed a increase in power just before an egine runs out of gas however only in chiansaws not in trucks.

No mater how this heated gas system worked it would not beat a FI system. Gasolen is made of carbon (C) and Hydrogen (H) and of course some addatives like alcohol and others but for on average gasolen is a molecule of eight (8) C and eighten (18) H. Now in the engine the C is supposed to react with Oxygen (O) in the air to form CO2 and the H is to react with O to form H2O or water. If the mixture is rich then there is not enough air and therefore CO is formed instead of CO2 this lowers mileage.

Now if you pick up a chemistry text book from high school of college you can find how much energy is release by this reaction. This energy goes into two forms machanical work (like turning the crank shaft and thereforet the wheels), and Heat which is removed by the exhust, oil and cooling system. Howmuch of this energy is made into usful machanical work is dependent on the design and condition of the engine. The efficiency of the engine is the energy delivered to the crank shaft (which can be used to move the vehical) divided by the energy the gas would produce under ideal conditions (purfact air fuel ratio). This efficency has an upper limit set by the Carnot cycle in the case of gasolin engines or the Deisel cycle in the case of Deisel engines. these upper limits are theoretical and can never be reached but are usful in design.

Now once the fuel is burned the energy is either in the form of heat or movement of the crank shaft. Since this magical gizmo does not change the ability of the engine to turn the energy in the gas into crank energy, this is only effected by the combustion chamber design and other fixed thinks that a little bolt on devise will not change, the only thing it could chage is the efficency with which the fuel is burnt and this is dependent mainly on air fuel ratio.

The carborator is built to meter luquid fuel to air in an ideal ratio. Howevery no carb is purfact and therefore all run a little lean or rich. since running lean can lead to engine damage most carbs are tuned to run a little rich this hurts milage slittly. FI with a O2 sensor will run at ideal air fuel ratio at all times. therefor the only thing preventing the ideal efficency are losses in the engine. since this magic gizmo doesnot help engine losses it can only ever be as good as IF is.

Even if this thing could improve the stock carborator it would not help. The carborator is only able to regulate lquid fuel and would not run worth a [censored] on vaporized gasolin. Provided each system is running under ideal conditions the order of efficency of fuel mixing would go like this: Carb., carb with computer controled mixture feed back, TBI, MPI. By makeing a carb ment to run on lquid fuel run of vapors would simple not work.

I think the reson that I have seen chainsaws run beter just before they die from lack of fuel is because during this time they are running leaner then normal. Under normal condidtion they likely run rich and by running out of fuel they run at ideal conditions for a second and run beter for that time. since the saws only have seemed to run beter for me when under no load the running rich is likly due to adjusting for the very simple carb used on saw that require they run rich under no load.

My appalogys if this is porely witten, I am to drunk to try to explane this.

bandhmo
post #9 of (permalink) Old 04-15-2002, 08:22 AM
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Re: OT gas mileage box

I think quite a few years ago Smokey Yurnick designed and built an intake system that used exhaust heat and some sort of turbo system to break up raw fuel and heat it before going to the cylinders. I don't think it ran as good as he thought it would because the heating that was supposed to help vaporize the fuel better expanded the overall mix and he got less cylinder filling thus less power. I think I read about this in a Popular Science or Popular Mechanics years ago.
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post #10 of (permalink) Old 04-15-2002, 03:59 PM
 
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Re: OT gas mileage box

Smokey's article was in Popular Mechanics.
I was in Daytona when they were looking at the car.
It centered around a Turbo Charger that he used as a 'Homogenizer' (don't ask me quite how it worked, he never explained fully, and I never figured out how he did it).

He heated the intake charge, then ran it through a 'Turbo'. ('Homogenizer')
It was installed on a Dodge Omni GLH with 2.2 Liter crap Chrysler engine.
(Henry always said GLH stood for Goes Like Hell).
That little Omni could run with the Buick Grand National at the time, and the GN was the quickest new production car at the time.
GN was even Quicker even than the Corvette.
The little Omni/ Horizon could run with a Corvette in the 1/8 mile...
The Omni was as aerodynamic as a brick, so anything past 50 MPH and the little car started to suffer badly.

I beat my brains out trying to reproduce what he had done for Jasper Engines, and even with his notes we couldn't even come close.
Ed Rice was one of the original engineers on the project, and even with his help we couldn't reproduce the results.
Ed has worked with Henry for over 50 years.
I've known Ed for 35 of my 41 years (he's known me all 41), he's my mentor, friend & sometime business partner, and he's never lied to me.
He says Henry did it, and I believe him.

Smokey has a long history of pranks, (the 7/8 scale NASCAR for one... that was COOL!), but I personally don't believe this was one of them...
I saw the car, was allowed free access to every part of the car, and I saw nothing that would indicate a hoax.
No extra fuel lines, no N2O lines, no sweet gas in the tank (89 octane pump gas), no trick aftermarket engine parts except for the turbo, and that was an off the shelf Garrett Air-Research unit with pretty normal size compressor and turbine shells...

I don't think it was a prank, I think he actually did it, but I just am not smart enough to figure out how.
<hr>
It's all about 'Brake Specific Fuel Consumption'.
How much fuel your engine consumes for the amount of usable horsepower delivered to the transmission input shaft.
We measure everything, air inlet volume, temp., density, moisture (both humidity and decompressed in the intake tract), velocity, fuel temp, flow rate, true octane ratings, additives, volume, pressure, manifold pressures at plenum sides and at each runner, combustion temps, combustion rates, exhaust temps. (at each exhaust port), exhaust temps in the tubes, exhaust velocity, exhaust composition, ect. ect. ect....
<hr>
As for the 'Mystery' fuel milage gadgets, none of them work...
Magnets, screens, electrical gadgets, fuel shut off valves, 'Vortex' gadgets that are supposed to spin the charge, $10 a piece spark plugs, I've tested them all on a dyno and none of them work.
<hr>
Things that do work...
Annular discharge nozzles on the venturi booster. (better atomization, better fuel milage &amp; power. Lets here it for fuel injectors)
Correct ignition cycling and components. (Firing at the correct time, and getting usable spark energy to the plugs)
Proper fuel metering. (not too rich or too lean, even when cycling the accelerator pump)
Thermal control. (not letting too much of your energy escape as heat, or allowing internal parts to over heat)


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