66 Scout suspension Questions - Off-Road Forums & Discussion Groups
IH Scout & Trucks Discussion of International Harvester, 4-Wheel Drive Truck and Scout Vehicles

 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of (permalink) Old 09-27-2000, 09:53 AM
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
66 Scout suspension Questions

Hello everyone,

I need your help with something. My buddy has a 66 Scout that he wants to set up to do rock crawling. It has the slant 4 engine in it that he just rebuilt, a t-98 tranny (I think) and a dana 300 tranfer case. The axles are a dana 44 rear and a dana 27 front both with 4.27 or 4.29 gears (i cant remember exactly) anyway he is now ready to do the suspension. I was thinking spring over but after reading some of the problems with a spring over in the front heres what I am thinking now. Spring over in the rear with Rubicon Express spring over Wrangler springs and a spring under lift in the front with a shackle reversal and a buggy leaf similar to MOREs Jeep setup. I haven't looked at the frame closely in the front so maybe the buggy leaf will not work. I am thinking that that shackle reversal will help with the caster in the front and make it handle better. I want to know you opinions. How much lift can we expect to get out of the spring over in the rear? (the Wrangler springs will provide an inch of lift at most, they are more or less flat) Where can we get a spring under lift springs to for the front to keep it even in the front. The shackle reversal and buggy leaf we can make so I am not worried about that. I would really appreciate any help you can give me, reference material or websites would be a great help. Let me know.

Kris

When I bought my Jeep it was exactly what I wanted...and I haven't stop changing it since!
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of (permalink) Old 09-27-2000, 01:04 PM
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: 66 Scout suspension Questions

I have a '71 Scout in my garage that I'm planning to make a rockcrawler out of. I had the suspension all planned out until I broke out the measuring tape. I was planning on running wagoneer springs up front, and 2wd chevy rear springs out back. The 2wd chevy springs are 60" long and flex like crazy. However the Scout doesn't have enough frame to mount the chevy springs with out moving the center pin more then I'd like. The Wagoneer springs will barely fit and also have a good reputation for flexing. I was planning on running Wrangler springs with a full length add-a-leaf front and rear, but I asked local Scout authorities and they said that the Wrangler springs will NOT hold up to the Scout's bulkitude, the spring rate is just too low. The shop I talked to uses the wagoneer springs up front and stock scout 2 rears springs on their scouts (they have ScoutIIs but 800s are roughly the same size). Their scouts are flex monsters.

However the Scout 800s won't flex as well as a Scout 2, their frames are wider. This creates several problems, first off is the tires getting in fights with frames. This is one of many reasons why you need to ditch the stock axles. You could use Scout2 axles but they are difficult to find and setup oddly which makes it hard to perform spring overs plus have 0 degrees of caster. My choice is to run a Wagoneer front 44 and a scout 2 rear 44. The Wagoneer front ends are cheap, plentiful, easy to spring over, have good steering from the factory, and 7 degrees of caster. As an added bonus if you swap in the wag front end and decide to bolt in a full width chevy or dodge axle later the springs don't need to be moved.

Unfortunately I am broke and can't afford to play with my Scout right now but here's the run down of my plan. 345, wide ratio t19, dana 20, Wagoneer front axle and springs, front end sprung over with shackle reversal, scoutII power steering box, ScoutII rear dana 44 full floating with discs, full bumper to bumper roll cage with seats seatbelts and front clip mounted to it, and some rear springs I haven't decided on yet. I'll have to spend some quality at the junk yard with a tape measure and pick some out.

Building a good custom suspension is mostly trial and error, expect to do it more then once before you get it right. Just try to get the longest springs you can fit off a vehicle of roughly the same weight and it'll be a good starting point. As for the the spring over/under issue it has been debated elsewhere and obviously I lean towards the spring over side. My friend had a 69 scout 800 he kept spring under and it barely cleared 33s and flex was minimal. As for the buggy leaves I'd say don't bother. The front of the scout would make it pretty easy to do but your only going to get so much flex before your tires hit the frame unless you run full size axles. I could go on forever telling all the things I've learned over the years building suspensions but I'll stop here. feel post any questions and I'll answer when I get a chance. Best of luck on the Scout, I'd love to see another fridge on the trail.
Travis

So many Jeeps... So little time[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif[/img]
post #3 of (permalink) Old 09-27-2000, 02:09 PM
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: 66 Scout suspension Questions

Thanks for the information, I printed it out and will show it to my buddy. I do have a questions about the buggy springs though. It seems that if the tires hit the frame the buggy springs could be used to an advantage. You could limited up travel to prevent the tires from hitting the frame but the buggy springs would increase your droop and help make up for the lack of up travel to get more overall flex. It seems to me that droop is the more important part of the travel range rather than up travel. Again I may be wrong on this but that is how it seems in my mind. Anybody else out there have any ideas on scouts??

Kris

When I bought my Jeep it was exactly what I wanted...and I haven't stop changing it since!
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of (permalink) Old 09-28-2000, 08:17 AM
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: 66 Scout suspension Questions

Your right that the buggy leaves would provide you with tons of droop while the front end could be limited to keep the tires from mashing stuff. However those narrow axles are going to cause you other problems. First off I assume you are planning on running at least 33" tires. Well 33s will rub on the springs and frame while turning, and that is with the crappy closed knuckle steering. The Dana 44s would provide you with the added width to help get the tires out of the frame, extra flex, extra stability, and much needed strength. The dana27 + big tires + four wheeling = breakage. Also all the early scouts I've owned or driven were about as manuverable as a train, while a ScoutII or wagoneer with open knuckle steering is suprisingly nimble. I really think you should upgrade the axles if even moderate 4Wheeling is in this scout's future. I'd hate to be in the middle of nowhere and have an axle shaft let loose. I doubt you'll be able to find an axle shaft for a scout 800 at your local autoparts store.

As for the buggy leaves it's not that they won't work, it's that they cause a lot more problems then they'll solve in this application. If you look at your friends frame you'll see the mounting point for the spring hanger is about 7" lower then the shackle mounting point. This could mean a lot of different things. If you run a shackle reversal then you'll either have to make some front hangers that hang down 7+ inches and grab every rock, or you'll have to weld your spring perches on at an angle to correct the height difference in the mounts. Now when you add a goofy leaf into the equation things get complicated, If you keep the shackle up front the goofy leaf will be VERY vulnerable while drooping to grabbing rocks and getting bent. If you put it in the rear of the spring for a shackle reversal then the pinion angle will end up pointing at the ground when drooping, resulting in busted front driveshafts. This could be avoided by running a short goofy leaf that won't seperate from the frame far enough to cause problems, but then why bother.

Granted everything I've said is skewed by my own expirences, opinions and geographic location. You could probably ask 100 different people how to build a scout and get a 100 different answers. But you'll have a hard time finding 10 other people here. Try www.binderbulletin.org, there are a lot more people there. I believe that the Scout I'm building will be a good all around 4wheeler as at home on the rock trails around Phoenix as blasting threw snow banks up north. You need to have an idea what sort of terrain this scout will spend its time in and build it accordingly. Try to find someone in your area that has a simular vehicle used for simular purposes and pick their brain about what they've found that works well. I think you'd be wise to ditch the stock axles but if you decide to keep them try just springing the truck over using the stock springs. If you upgrade the springs and do a spring over up front I'd hold off on the goofy leaves, if leaf springs won't keep the tires on the ground then try the buggy springs. That's my opinion anyway. If you have any other questions don't hesitate to ask.
Travis

So many Jeeps... So little time[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif[/img]
post #5 of (permalink) Old 09-29-2000, 08:33 AM
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: 66 Scout suspension Questions

AZJeeper,

Thanks again for the post. What you are saying makes sense, please be patient with me, I know Jeeps like the back of my hand but Scouts are like a foreign langauge to me. I will have to look the setup of his Scout over real good this weekend. We are trying to built a suspension that will work well in technical wheelin (i.e. Rockcrawling). I have never driven the Scout so I dont know how it handles. If we would switch to the Waggie axles how far would they stick out?? I am assuming that we could pull the 4.27 gears out of his rear dana 44 and put them into the Waggie axles to save the cost of upgrading both axles, is this correct?? Him and I are going Junk yarding tomorrow to look for parts for his Scout and 86-89 Waggie axles to put under my Wrangler. Maybe we will see if we can find a set of Waggie axles for his Scout, what year should we look for? Fabrication is not a problem, we just want to know what we are getting into before we get started. Thanks again for all your help.

Kris

When I bought my Jeep it was exactly what I wanted...and I haven't stop changing it since!
post #6 of (permalink) Old 09-29-2000, 05:00 PM
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: 66 Scout suspension Questions

How do Scouts handle? They are very heavy, this makes them a little different to wheel than a Jeep since the weight can make it a bit easier to find traction. But they have a lot more body to bang up then Jeeps As for the axles if you go with the narrow trac they'll be about 2" wider. The narrow tracs are on wagoneers and Cherokees without the fenderflares. The widetrac axles would be approx. 10" wider but it would be easier to put in a front end out of a chevy since it has the cast in spring perch on top of the axle. The widetrac axles would be on J-trucks and Cherokee's with fenderflares. The earlier axles are more desirable since they have flat top knuckles which will help if you decide to swap to high steer later on. If you deside to keep the model 18 Tcase then try to find a rear end out of a quadratrac waggoneer since they are offset to the passenger side. If you want to run a centered rear diff I'd probably be easier to run a scout 2 rear 44 and switch the front end over to 5 lug, the centered wagoneer rears are tough to find. You could swap in the 4.27s out of the scout if they are in good shape, but I'd guess the scout is 19spline while the wagoneers are 30. So you would still need a different carrier. Then again you might be able the use the wagonner side gears in the scout case I'm not sure. If you want to see some pics of a scout working well in highly technical rock crawling try to find some pics of Brett McCullen's rock monster. It's a copper scoutII with Wagonner front springs. If I can track down some shots I'll post them for you. I know the truck has been in 4Wheel and Offroad several times but I forget what issues.
Travis

So many Jeeps... So little time[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif[/img]
post #7 of (permalink) Old 09-29-2000, 05:18 PM
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: 66 Scout suspension Questions

Here's a shot of Brett's scout. Go to Desertfab.com, it's his brother's webpage for his shop. These guys have been scouting over the rocks since before we were born. Hopefully the pictures will get your buddy all keyed up to go bash the fridge on the boulders.
Travis

So many Jeeps... So little time[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/crazy.gif[/img]
Attached Files
File Type: art 40-225503-brett'sscout.art (13.5 KB, 10 views)
post #8 of (permalink) Old 09-30-2000, 11:48 PM
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: 66 Scout suspension Questions

I just got to this post (been away from home), and would like to give my 2 cents. First, I have a 1978 Scout II, basically the next version of your scout. I read that the 80s/ 800s have a wider frame earlier in the thread, whether they do or not, I do know that the scout II's are wider and bigger overall.

On the subject of spring over conversions: I considered doing a spring over conversion on my scout, but decided against it when someone at my school was almost killed when a spring over on his truck came off on the highway (I also heard that he barely missed that oncoming semi-truck). If you go a spring over, make sure its a good job and won't come off. Personally, I prefer the stock configuration with taller springs, partly becuase this means less things that you can mess up. I have 4" triangle springs, which are basically stock springs with add-a-leafs. They are stiffer, but they still flex like anything. I can make 31's rub against the wheel wells if I want too. The stiffer springs also give it better handling on-road. A lot of people like the spring overs becuase of the better ground clearence and stock ride, but stock ride means that with the higher CoG that the scout really likes the idea of flipping.

As for things rubbing, the frame (at least on the scout IIs) is below anything else for the middle of the truck. This means if it is a flat rub, you will only rub frame... and rockers and all will survive.

You need to also consider how much on-road use the scout will be getting. IMO, if the scout is going to see a lot of road use, lift springs will give you better road handling (although somewhat bumpier). The main thing is really your ability. If you think you can do a SOA with no problems, have at it. Just be sure you make it safe for yourselves and others.

Whatever you decide.... GOOD LUCK!!!

Ryan Moore
1978 Scout II 4x4
345 V8, 4" TriAngle suspension lift
31x10.50 tires on 15 x 10 inch rims (gotta love the room around the tires for flexing)
73-74,000 original miles

Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Off-Road Forums & Discussion Groups forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome