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POLL: Fuel Injection, Howell, Holley, Mopar, etc?

4K views 20 replies 7 participants last post by  **DONOTDELETE** 
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#1 ·
This is related to the post by Ledger. Just for information purposes, what works for people who have installed aftermarket TBI's. Holley's seem to have a few problems, from what I have read.

I think it would be interesting if folks who have installed these systems could post their $0.02 about what they have, what they put it on and how well they worked.

I know I want fuel injection. I also don't want a buch of headaches. I am thinking a Ford 302/351W w/ factory FI, but if there is a good working TBI system I could slap on my 258, that might be a cheaper/easier route (ya, ya, less power, I know).


'74 CJ-5
Send Money
...and a beer
 
G
#2 ·
Well, the holleys are nice when they work..It's nice to be able to adjust some of the settings, but at the same time it's a pita.TWO WORDS, closed loop.. That takes all the guess work out of it.If a part fails on the holly system, YOU have to figure it out.On a system like Howell or factory, it thinks for itself and adjusts to meet the needs.I ran the Holley on a 304 and was constantly trouble shooting it.I've installed the howell system on 2 258 sixes and have had nothing but good to say about them.I junkyarded the system I have on my 350 chevy,and have had no problems with it as of yet.Whats nice about the factory set ups, is that little red light that spits out codes.with those codes you can narrow the problem down pretty quick.I believe that the Howell has that, But the holley dont.Your pretty much left to figure it out on your own or through the holley tech line(when you can get through)with the holley stuff.The holley system can be nice if you have a hopped up engine because of the adjustability though!!
I want to thank Holley for teaching me the basics of Fuel Injection. It definatly made me figure out how the majority of it works... Good luck!! Hope this helped a little.

 
#3 ·
I have had great results with Howell. They use good parts that can be found at GM dealers and most any parts store. Their tech help line is very informative and a bunch of those guys drive Jeeps.

My $0.02



Hank
88 YJ (sort of)
 
#4 ·
I have the Mopar, and love it. I installed it in conjunction with a complete rebuild and build-up. Including the 4.0 head. No problems now for 3 + years! (Knock on wood) I run regular unleaded with no knock, and the engine makes awsome lowend torque.

It is expensive, and problemmatic if you don't do the head change, but as the other have said about the howell, great self diagnostics, and parts availablility.

Enjoying Montana's Big Sky (NOT, Fire Fire Everywhere)
 
G
#6 ·
That is if you can find one! I was prepared to do the 4.0 swap and couldn't find one in my area that was low mileage. I went with Howell because of that very reason and the fact that the 4.0 does not make the low end torque that the 4.2 does. A guy I work with just did a 4.0 swap and likes the highway RPM's but is not happy with the lower torque at trail RPM's.

'75 CJ5,258,T18a,4.27's,33's,On-board air,Warn 8274
 
G
#7 ·
I'd stick with a factory setup for reliability and simplicity. Like the other post mentioned, closed loop is the way to go. A swap of a factory system isn't that bad once you study the system a bit. I'm sold on the GM TBI and they're becoming more available and reasonable. I've also heard good things about Howell.

/wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif
'84 K20 driver
'80 CJ-7 trail machine
'79 K10 mud racer
 
G
#8 ·
snowtow.... I have the 4.0 in my TJ. The torque isnt an issue for me and I wheel every weekend with it. I agree though, the 258 'grunts' down low.

My CJ7 had the Howell fuel injection kit ... it performed flawlessly for two years before my engine just got tired. Im now swapping in a Chevy 350 TBI... talk about your low-end torque :)

Regards,
LarryM
"If I can't go faster I'll go longer."
 
#9 ·
I swapped a 91 4.0 into my wife's 83 CJ-7, and used parts from the mopar kit to finish it off(computer, wire harness, air filter kit, distributor, crank position sensor). It works awesome. I would have to disagree on the lack of bottom end torque, I had a barely noticeable decline, but not enough to outway the benefits. My overall low range gearing is 54:1. It was a little on the expensive side after running new exhuast and wrapping up misc details, but I got the motor for $500 from a wrecked vehicle. The motor had 1500 miles on a complete rebuild!

Greg
89 XJ-stock, 83 CJ-7/4.0HO-t18-d300-locked-2.5" rancho-32 bfg mt, 79 Blazer/454-t400-np205-locked-4w disc-35 bfg mt, 67 CJ-5/231-t18-d18-4.88-front disc-rear 11" drum/front locked/30-9.50's
 
#10 ·
Please don't be among the very unhappy Mopar FI kit owners. I can't tell you how many guys I have run in to that are very unhappy with with it. I have a friend with $5000 into a kit, rebuilt 258 and install. And it pings. It pings for everybody. The only cure is the 4.0 head. So my friend now has to void his warranty on his new rebuild, and put a 4.0 head on.

I'm with Larry. I swapped a 4.0 out of an '89 cherokee into my Scrambler. The earlier 4.0 produce the torque at lower rpm's than the later version. (2400 vs 4200) I've got less that $1000 into it. Just think what my friend could have had for $5000 if he knew what he was getting into.

I have also seen on this or some other BBS, someone trying to get together a lawsuit against Mopar for this kit.

CJ-8, 4.0, NP435, D44 x D60, 4w Disc, Wrangler springs up front, SOA, 1" Body lift, 35" TSL SX

CJ-6, Cherokee
 
G
#12 ·
I have the Mopar kit, am tickled to death with it, no pinging, no 4.0 head, all 4.2 parts. Put one on my sons, no pinging, no 4.0 head, all 4.2 parts, he's tickled to death. Did you do the install correctly? I'd buy another one if I needed or had too. Just my opinion.

Bird

 
#13 ·
The best advice I can give,
Is if your intended application is a utility vehicle, like a jeep, then stay with a fuel system that uses factory parts.
If Holley, or DFI for that matter, decides to change the design, you can have an orphan overnight.

Howell, and the Mopar systems, along with swiping one off a suitable donor vehicle, will all have the advantage of having replacement parts available almost anywhere for years to come.

The factory self diagnostic systems are a great help if something goes wrong, but they can't tell you every little thing... You will still have to stay sharp if you intend to modify the system very much.


Good luck and let us know what you decide.
Aaron.

"I Have The Body Of A God... Buddha"
 
#14 ·
1. I've had a Howell TBI 5 years...
2. Would I do it again? No, for the cost... I'd do a 4.0L swap.
3. Any failures? Yes, a CTO swich, $12 and 15 min. to diagnoss and swap.
4. Caviets: If you tinker with cam, lifters, stoke, etc. go with a Howell as they will burn a new chip. If you don't tinker with the engine... any EFI will do.
5. Howell will aslo do a converison for the Ford engine you listed.

Good Jeepin'

Larry
 
G
#15 ·
I have to clarify that I think the 4.0 swap is a good alternative to any of the EFI systems. In my case, my 258 is very tight and swapping a good engine for another seemed stupid. That is why I chose Howell over a 4.0. I also believe that perceptions in torque decline from a 258 to a 4.0 all depend on what kind of condition the engine is that is being replaced. If a 258 is tired, it won't have the perceived power that a fresh one has. Most 258's that are replaced are tired and the low end grunt isn't what a fresh one would be. My friend who noticed a big change in the low end grunt was replacing a freshly rebuilt 258 with a 4.0. His 258 was giving him problems because the head work wasn't up to snuff (bad valve seals) and it also pinged bad with the Mopar EFI. Rather than do a 4.0 head swap, he found a complete 4.0 for a song and replaced the 258.

On a side note, how is that CJ7 rebuild going LarryM? I remember when you bought the TJ to drive while the 350 swap started. Have you updated your webpage with progress? Just curious.

'75 CJ5,258,T18a,4.27's,33's,On-board air,Warn 8274
 
#16 ·
Bird, my friend paid almost $1000 for it to be professionally installed and a fresh rebuilt 258 to be installed. These guys have done dozens of these. And I have heard from dozens of MPI users ALL unsatisfied. But most have so much invested that they can't turn back. The one guy that was satisfied with his MPI admitted that his pings.

My friend is running 92 octane AND octane boost trying to prevent the ping. He has only 6,000 miles on it.

CJ-8, 4.0, NP435, D44 x D60, 4w Disc, Wrangler springs up front, SOA, 1" Body lift, 35" TSL SX

CJ-6, Cherokee
 
G
#17 ·
I had a problem like that on a 5.0 Mustang, turned out to be a problem some filiments in the Mass Air Flow Sensor. Cleaned the filiments and it got better, replaced the MAF and the problem went away.
FWIW

'74 CJ-5, 258, NP435, D44 w/LockRite
(OK, well the np435 is in the garage next to the Jeep)
 
#18 ·
A jeep mechanic for a jeep dealer, first put me on to the MPI, His, and two other cj's in the shop all had it and they loved it. I have had mine for three years and think it is great. I got stuck behind some v-8 equiped cj's on the last run, and they can tell you what not having enough lowend torque is. I idled up trails with, at the time, 3.30 gears, 33" tires, and 5.1 first gear, and stock Dana 300 Tcase. The one chevy TB injected jeep, with same set up as mine except 4:11 gears, (not sure about tranny) could not get out of his own way. He had to run on his clutch.

The MPI'd 4.2 makes great torque, sucks for mudbogging, and is simple and straight forward. I have never had trouble with mine, and I run regular unleaded only.

Enjoying Montana's Big Sky (NOT, Fire Fire Everywhere)
 
G
#19 ·
What I have learned over the years is you take a large gamble by trying to retrofit EFI onto an engine(particularly the 258) that was previously carberated.

This is not to say there arent plenty of success stories... you see some of them here but there is just too many people spending $1000 and up only to have nightmarish problems.

Someone mentioned the class action lawsuit against the MPI. They are trying to revive the suit. Years ago there was a similar suit gaining momentum against the Howell kit.

A few of us here are members of a "do-it'yourself" fuel injection newsgroup that is primarily Jeep-oriented. Judging by the numerous "help" threads, there is a lot of people out there battling their 'setups'.

I will say this though... my Howell injected 258 with GM HEI was every bit the engine that the 4.0 in my 2000 TJ is.

snowtow,
I'll get back to work on the CJ very soon. This is AZ and working outside is impossible during the summer. So the CJ sits and waits for a few short weeks to pass and bring cooler temps. The TJ stole some of my energy last winter and I ignored the CJ completely. My focus is back and I'll sell the TJ once the CJ is complete.

Regards,
LarryM
"If I can't go faster I'll go longer."
 
#20 ·
Mopar MPI success story

OK, RSD-
Now for the serious reply...
I can tell you what most people problably did wrong installing an MPI and I can tell you what I did right.
In most cases many did not do their homework and set themselves up for failure...
Most ignored the stated warning to not install and MPI on a worn engine.
The presence of carbon build-up in their old, oil blowing mills is a sure fire way to ensure ping (pre-detonation). Plus, the old fashined style combustion chambers were not designed for FI. Add to this the percentage of engines that have an after market or performance cam. Three strikes, then you are out (of luck).
I have NEVER heard a report of pinging if a 4.0 head is installed on a 258 with the MPI. And most have heard that there is a water jacket issue to deal with installing the 4.0 head.
Hesco co-developed and sell the MPI kit but most bought theirs from a discounter like Pro-Tech in Denver (still in business??) and most do a 'by guess and by golly' cam choice, again ignoring the stated warning about using a hot cam with the MPI.
I learned a long time ago that I always loose when I gamble.
I wanted to try re-building an I-6 though I struggled with the knowledge that tossing in a GM 350 had a LOT of advantages. And after doing MY homework, I realized that a performance I-6 build-up would be every bit as or even more expensive (not even counting what a set of roller rockers would cost) than using a new crate V-8.
One thing that influenced my choice was what a long time local Jeep guru said ..
"Installing a V-8 is one way of ruining a good Jeep!"
Many can, should, and will disagree with that statement.
Having made my choice and prefering not to gamble, I called Bennie at Hesco to get advice before I stared, knowing (because I'd done my homework) that sucess hinged on compatability of the MPI with all components.
After a thourogh consultation on the phone, Bennie shipped the MPI, a ported new 4.0 head w/welded jackets, a set of matched factory style rockers, a Cyotes double roller timing chain (4* advance), a Melling heavy duty (not hi-volume) oil pump PLUS their MPI/DYNO PROVEN 214-R cam.
The result (still only couple hundred miles on it) was WAY beyond my highest expectations. It runs like a scalded dog, has torque up the kazoo, and top end going in to 5000 RPM (a new set of ARP rod bolts and a good, full balance job help here). After it's warmed up and I punch it in first or second with 35's and 3.37 gears the front end raises up, I'm pushed to into the back of my seat, and the hair stands up on the back of my neck! It has twice the power of my kid's new 4.0 Sahara and even he said the new build had "balls". And that is something coming from a 19 year old.
Soo... pay your $ and take your choices ... just do your homework first ...
I'd never gamble with an MPI on a 4.2 head. Your odds then are 50/50 at best.



JAF
http://www.monsterslayer.com/jeep
 
G
#21 ·
I have the Holley TBI on my 79 304. Paid 600.00 for it new and it was simple to install. I've had 2 problems with it. The first time I sent the computer back thinking it had died. The second time I found that the relay was loose internally. It has worked great since. Not sure which brand is best but barring the 2 problems the 304 is running like a scalded dog. The Holley system is very simple so it was easy to trouble shoot. I got no help from thier Tech line though. Overall I am very pleased with it.

Jeff

 
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