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Future of Jeep

2K views 64 replies 20 participants last post by  mbalbritton 
#1 ·
#3 ·
I agree totally BUY AMERICAN. I will go out of my way to purchase parts, and major household items made in the U.S.A.
This is something that I have preached to my boys, and girls, ever since they were old enough to pay attention. I really don't care to see hard earned money being shipped out of the country. This is one of my greatest sources of irritation.
 
#4 ·
Wow, doesn't sound good at all to me. It's early, but sure sounds like they want to be main stream and not got out on a limb to provide any kind of unique or niche vehicles. More four doors and "crossovers"... buy the way... who actually thinks a crossover is a good idea? Yeah, some look good, but they are basically station wagons without the extra room. Four door cars that have trunks with windows that aren't as fuel efficient. Geez! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thud.gif
 
#5 ·
The big three American auto makers are in serious trouble and there is plenty of blame to go around.

To start with, the Auto Workers Unions has driven the cost of building an automobile by the big three to a totally unreasonable level. (Before you union guys get your panties all in a bunch, I WANT YOU TO MAKE A LIVING WAGE!) However the "extras" have gotten out of hand. Free health care for life and some of the other crap has made it too expensive to compete. (Try finding a Fortune 500 company that gives you FREE health care for life after you leave the company.) As such, the big three have to cut corners to meet the demands of the union, resulting in a substandard auto compared to the Japanese in many ways. If you will remember, the demise of the Scout was specifically caused by the Auto Workers Union striking IH in 1980. It simply made more sense to stop making Scouts than pay the union freight.

The big three have also had their heads up their a**es since the first oil embargo given to us by none other than the Iranians in the 1970s.(** see below) The cars they offered were big boats that got 7-8- miles to the gallon when Japan offered economy. The big three made no effort to change for the next 5 years, but by then the Japanese had gotten their foot firmly in the door and THEY HAVE NEVER LOOKED BACK. Just look at the Toyota commercials for the Tundra (which really looks like a Ford truck at first glance). If one can't see that they have launched a full out attack on the Ford F150 to unseat it as the best selling truck in America, you're just not paying any attention.

My favorite bumper sticker from the seventy-

"Hungry, broke, and out of work? THEN EAT YOUR FOREIGN CAR!!"

Kriss

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/usflag.gif(No rice burners in my stable!) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/usflag.gif

** (If you are too young to remember, there was a gas shortage when Iran reduced the amount of oil they would ship to the US to drive up the price per barrel. You had to sit in line for hours just to get gas if you could find a station that had it, and in Oregon you could only buy gas on an even or odd day depending upon the last number of your license plate. I was driving a 1947 CJ2A with a Chevy 350 stuffed under the hood and the stock 10 gallon tank under the seat. The most gas I could ever get at any one time was 10 gallons as it was illegal to fill cans. I spent a lot of time at home.)
 
#6 ·
I don't know how it is in the rest of the country, but it really sucks here in metro Detroit right now. A ton of homes for sale, many foreclosures, many other companies related to the Big 3laying off employees.....

Times are tough here.
 
#7 ·
Two particular statements in that article that I relate together
[ QUOTE ]
Chrysler also badly misjudged demand, leading to a big inventory build-up.

.... axing 10-20 per cent of Chrysler, Dodge and Jeep models.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to say, as Jeep was introducing the Compass, and the eleventy billion versions of the Wrangler, and Dodge introduced the Nitro (come on that's basically a 2wd Liberty)... I thought why? Why all these different models slam slam slam, one right after the other. That costs big money!

What happend to the Chrysler that stripped it's offices to the bare bones to save money and rebuild the company?

Sorry, I don't Blame it on the Unions, I think it goes back further than that to other social issues in this nation.
 
#8 ·
[ QUOTE ]
Why all these different models slam slam slam, one right after the other. That costs big money!

[/ QUOTE ]

Because it's really cheap, in relative terms, to bring out a re-badged, slightly modified version of an existing model. Bring out a bunch and with luck one or two will become a hit. Bringing out something completely new takes cubic miles of money.

Remember what saved Chrysler the last time? It was the 'K' car. A new platform that wasn't exceptional in any way, but let them produce dozens of variants including, I think, the mini vans. Some of them became big sellers and saved the company. That and cubic miles of money from the Federal treasury. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, I don't Blame it on the Unions, I think it goes back further than that to other social issues in this nation.

[/ QUOTE ]

The unions have to take a share of the blame, but there's plenty to go around. Maybe management could have fought harder to keep contracts in line. I say "maybe" because it probably would have taken a unified effort, including lockouts, with GM and Ford, and that probably would have brought anit-trust action down on all three.

Management might have also spent more five years ago on development of new models and improvement of existing ones. They could have more efficient models being brought out as the oil prices went haywire. If they had a crystal ball.

Ford and GM seem to be in the same lifeboats as DC, but theirs aren't shipping water over the gunnels. Yet. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
 
#9 ·
It really isn't rocket science -- but politicians still haven't figured out how to steal from it, so they won't even consider it.

If you try to import electric saws to Japan, since Japan already makes those saws, they put a big import tax on it. The price plus the tax puts it more expensive than their home grown products. It's still available if someone there wants it, it's just more expensive.
2 things happen then - home grown products are protected from cheap imports, and the government gets revenue from those that are imported. Their entire economy is improved, unemployment is reduces, money stays at home, government has income etc.

Now for here in the US --
Many many things are no longer made in the US. Cheap imports have caused US manufacturers to close or move overseas. Many of those things would be produced here again IF they did not have to compete with cheap imported stuff.
The huge income produced by import taxes would be far larger than the IRS gets from you as personal income tax. And corporate taxes could be lowered, helping our own economy grow. Our government would actually have more money than they have now!

Sure, some of the things we buy now - like everything at Wal-Mart, would be more expensive at first, but as soon as the lag caught up, where products that are imported now started being produced here things would even out.

And if you no longer had to pay ANY income tax, you could well afford it!

And - since more people are employed, that alone stimulates the economy.

Other countries are smart enough to protect their own ecomomies - why can't we?
 
#10 ·
[ QUOTE ]
Now for here in the US --
Many many things are no longer made in the US. Cheap imports have caused US manufacturers to close or move overseas.

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny you mentioned Wal-Mart. At this point in your post I was thinking of the Think I call the Wal-Mart effect. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif good call Rich.

To add to that, The last place I worked was a Point of Sale Display Company. I designed the Displays you see in Walmart, Home Depot, Lowes, the Grocery store, etc. We had the Capacity to Design, Print, Build, Create, Pack out and ship all of our Product. But did we? nope. The owner found it cheaper to design in house and then take the materials and customer products and ship it to China, have it manufactured, and packed out and then shipped back to the US for much cheaper than us. Even with us running "Import Labor".

Now the owner of my current place of employment is thinking of doing away with our "Made in USA" stamp on our maps so he can have our Maps printed in Peru. Our Printers just hiked our costs by 27%. Add to that some company that has Cartographers in India is offering Mapping services for as little as $7/hr. That's incroaching on my job now. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cussing.gif
 
#11 ·
[ QUOTE ]
2 things happen then - home grown products are protected from cheap imports, and the government gets revenue from those that are imported.

[/ QUOTE ]

A third thing happens - everything that used to be imported sees a price increase. Every citizen winds up paying more for the stuff they need.

[ QUOTE ]
Sure, some of the things we buy now - like everything at Wal-Mart, would be more expensive at first, but as soon as the lag caught up, where products that are imported now started being produced here things would even out.

[/ QUOTE ]

If domestic manufacturers could produce the items cheaper here now, they already would be producing them here now. For whatever reason, they can't compete, even with shipping charges from half way around the globe added on to the imports.

And regarding the talk of sweatshops and people working in Bangaladesh for a dollar a day, in most of those places those are the best jobs there are, with people eager to do them. The alternative is often working even harder for fifty cents a day. It's not our job to enforce workplace standards around the world. We have enough on our hands trying to fight terrorists around the world.

An exception might be Communist China, where it's probably true that prisoners are being used in factories as slave laborers. On the other hand, if they weren't needed in the factories they'd probably be summarily executed.

On the topic of Buy American, over a year ago I made some stuff for an embroidery business in return for a box of caps with my company logo on them. I wanted top-quality caps made in the U.S.

They've found two companies making caps here, one in Arizona and the other in the south-east somewhere. They can't get either to return their calls. I may have to settle for caps from Bangaladesh. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
 
#12 ·
Yes, it's NOT our job to enforce job standards anywhere else.

IT IS OUR JOB TO PROTECT OURSELVES.

If other countries want to compete with US made goods, they would have to get their quality up so people would buy it. Just look at the quality of the stuff Wal-Mart, Harbor Freight et al sells. For the most part it's just junk.

Protecting ourselves causes our own economy grows, and we all grow personally.

Make things competitive!

Would you rather have your neighbor starve so someone across the globe has a job?
How 'bout your own family? Is someone in a third world country that you don't even know more important than your own family?

Those are the questions that need to be asked.

Our economy is essentially a closed loop system. You work, get paid, spend the money to buy products your neighbor made, he gets paid, spends the money on what you made - a loop! Whenever there's an outside influence that breaks that circle - such as your neighbor buys foreign goods things fall apart. You are out of a job, then eventually so is he.
Yes, it's far more complicated than that, but that's the basic principle.

Not unlike your computer controlled vehicle - a big air leak throws everything out of kilter.

Charity, like incest, begins at home.
 
#13 ·
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, it's far more complicated than that, but that's the basic principle.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's the additional complications that throw it out of that neat loop.

For starters, who is a neighbor? The guy next door, or the guy across town? Or is it the guy in the next state? If you're in Montana, is the guy in Alberta a neighbor? If you're in California, is the guy in Baja a neighbor? There's no economic reason that a neighbor can't be across a border or an ocean. There are nationalistic reasons, reasons of national pride, but no economic reasons.

Protectionism has a poor track record. There's no nation more protectionist than North Korea, but their economy is nothing to write home about. The more Communist China engages in international trade, the more healthy its economy. Cause and effect? Maybe, maybe not. But my guess is that there is a significant causal relationship. And there are many economists who believe that worldwide protectionist pressures are the main causal factor behind the Great Depression.

I don't buy the "level playing field" arguments. The playing field IS level. The "government subsidies" that, for example, the E.U. countries give to Airbus, come from taxes on the labor of the citizens of the countries that pay the subsidies. It amounts to taking money out of worker's pockets to give to Airbus so that they can pay workers. The net result is that the workers are working for less than their pay stub says, that's all. It distorts the picture, but doesn't change anything on a macro scale.

U.S. dollars that buy things overseas aren't "gone." They may jump from country to country a dozen times, but they're of no further significance to us until they're ultimately used to buy something in the U.S. As long as they're out of the country, they represent a terrific deal for us! They represent stuff that we've gotten for free. Once they're used to buy something in the U.S. they've completed a cycle that has given someone here a job making whatever those dollars buy.

Several years ago George Will wrote that money is nothing more than congealed labor. It's a perspective that can clarify thought on many subjects.
 
#14 ·
First -- FAMILY

2nd - NEIGHBORS
next door
across the street
down the street,
next block over
2 blocks over
eventually across town

Neighbors - radiusing out from your location!

Funny - that's your circle. But if everyone has a circle that radiates out from their location, first thing ya know all the circles are overlapping. Eventually those circles encompass the entire world!

Would you loan your Jeep to your neighbor to get to work if he needed it? Then why not send it to China - I'm sure someone there making $1 a day could use it.

As long as even one person in THIS COUNTRY goes to bed hungry, we need to look after our own.

Most economists are only theory based, they don't understand the reality of being practical. If they did, they'd understand why Socialism has failed every time it's been tried.

Socialism -
Good when the aircraft needs to be lighter to clear the mountains ahead and something needs to be tossed out.
Bad when they vote it's YOU!
 
#15 ·
[ QUOTE ]
Would you loan your Jeep to your neighbor to get to work if he needed it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Most of them, certainly. A few, no way, Jose!

[ QUOTE ]
Then why not send it to China

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd loan it to a Chinese person if I knew him personally, and knew that he'd take proper care of it and return it in a day or two.

[ QUOTE ]
As long as even one person in THIS COUNTRY goes to bed hungry, we need to look after our own.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aw, Rich, you know that kind of argument is rather silly. Same reasoning as "If a helmet law will save even one person from brain damage . . . " or "If emission regulations will save even one person from an asthma attack . . . " or "If warning labels on coffee cups will save even one person from burned genitals . . . " It ignores all other consequences of the proposed action and alternative uses of the resources.

We already look after our own to the tune of billions of confiscated tax dollars per year. The war on poverty has cost how many TRILLIONS of dollars since LBJ? How many more "poor" are there today than when it started? If a person goes to bed hungry in this country it's because of choices he made. Healthy people should go to work, even if they have to take a job away from an illegal immigrant. There are charities who will take care of the feeble.
 
#16 ·
What a buncha liberals. I don't think you could find more at a DNC convention. How did you all get to be Republicans?

Wa wa wa, protect my job.

I worked for my money and it's not to be used to supplement your income because you don't want to work. The American worker ain't going to. He thinks that just showing up within an hour of the starting time is good enough.

My money will be spent on a good product at a reasonable price. I ain't supporting you with buying an overpriced and/or inferior product just so you can have a job. If you can't build it cheaper, build it better. If you can't compete in a global market, find something else to do.

[ QUOTE ]
Most economists are only theory based, they don't understand the reality of being practical. If they did, they'd understand why Socialism has failed every time it's been tried.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yet, that is exactly what you suggest with your buy American campaign.

At least Jim seems pretty conservative but I wonder if you see this as a problem.

[ QUOTE ]
An exception might be Communist China, where it's probably true that prisoners are being used in factories as slave laborers. On the other hand, if they weren't needed in the factories they'd probably be summarily executed.

[/ QUOTE ]
If we brought back chain gangs, maybe we wouldn't have so many people returning to prison a dozen times but liberals want prisons run like a scout camp and the unions whine that they are taking away jobs if the prisoners have to work.
 
#17 ·
[ QUOTE ]
It really isn't rocket science -- but politicians still haven't figured out how to steal from it, so they won't even consider it.

If you try to import electric saws to Japan, since Japan already makes those saws, they put a big import tax on it. The price plus the tax puts it more expensive than their home grown products. It's still available if someone there wants it, it's just more expensive.
2 things happen then - home grown products are protected from cheap imports, and the government gets revenue from those that are imported. Their entire economy is improved, unemployment is reduces, money stays at home, government has income etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't take this wrong but, have you ever been to Japan? I mean modern day Japan and not from 25-30 years ago. You say their practice somehow protected and improved their economy yet for the last 15 years or so their economy has been in the toilet, suffering contraction and no appreciable growth. You think American national debt is bad, go look up Japan's, and the relationship of debt to gross domestic product. Take that into account and the average Japanese is WAY deeper in debt than the average American. Their habit of protecting home grown business from foreign competition has resulted in a shat-load of companies with no effective competition on their home turf and guess who takes it up the keishter cost wise? Junichi Q Public, that's who. You can buy a sony dvd player cheaper HERE than you can in Japan. A plane jane pair of levi 505's will set you back about $100. Head out with the Missus for a Japanese home grown steak dinner with all the standard trimmings and expect to spend $200-$300. Years back the French tried to bust into the Japanese ski market and were turned away. The official government reason being that French skis wouldn't work of the "special" Japanese snow. No kidding. Price a pair of Japanese made skis.

Just slapping import taxes on the world is not the answer.

The point being that outright protectionism of our businesses very well may increase employment and wages. The flipside of that is it's just going to increase the cost of all the products you now have no CHOICE but to buy. Net effect is you're just treading water cost of living wise. If your lucky.
 
#18 ·
I read through most of this, but did not read it real thoroughly. I have a couple of comments

What's worse -- buying a car made in America with the factories being owned by a foreign company or buying a car made in a foreign country with factories owned by an American Company?

I thought that the US placed import taxes on several items (Canadian Lumber, Asian Steel), including cars. They may not put the import tax on the cars anymore, I don't know. I thought that the import tax on Automobiles is what drove Toyota, Mercedes, BMW, Honda, Nissan, and others to build assembly lines in America. What differentiates the success of these foreign brands who build their Cars on US soil from the US owned companies?

I also noted that someone mentioned that China uses Criminals to work in factories thus keeping the prices low. That has not been my experience. Labor is low in China for many reasons including a low standard of living and a fixed exchange rate (their currency does not float against the dollar).

The US has a standard of living (consumption rate) that is second to none in this world. I am concerned that we will continue to loose exportable jobs because the cost of Labor in the US is higher than other parts of the world. I am concerned that the cost of manufacturing will be biased away from the US until such time that the standards of living in other countries are increased.

I think that we have already begun to see this. Look at the countries that used to be the "goto" places for manufacturing. These are not the same countries where new investments are being made.

Unfortunately, there is not an easy answer to this problem. If the US protects jobs by increasing the price of foreign goods then our buying power decreases. If US jobs go overseas then our unemployment rates increase effectively decreasing wages -- our buying power decreases.

That is the way I see it. I hope that I am wrong.

-- Mike
 
#19 ·
[ QUOTE ]
I also noted that someone mentioned that China uses Criminals to work in factories thus keeping the prices low. That has not been my experience.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually I was wondering....this is a problem how? I think there ought to be a bit more manual labor going on in our jails as well. Not college and 8 hrs a day of HBO.

Labor is low in China for many reasons including a low standard of living and a fixed exchange rate (their currency does not float against the dollar).
I know a fair amount of Chinese, one of them being a college educated doctor working for a drug company. Her expertise is cancer research. She makes approximately $500/month US, and owns two very nice homes, one inside and one outside of Beijing. She's living pretty damn good I would say, at $500 a month.

[ QUOTE ]
I think that we have already begun to see this. Look at the countries that used to be the "goto" places for manufacturing. These are not the same countries where new investments are being made.

-- Mike

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. The cycle continues. Back in the 70's if you wanted it made cheap you had it made in Japan, and it was all considered junk, which is hardly the case today. Hell, today if JAPAN wants it made cheap they go to the same place as everyone else...China. Walk into a Japanese dept. store in the vein of a Walmart and you will find no end of stuff Made in China. There will come a day when the same thing will apply to China. Their industrial revolution will come and go, just like ours has, and they will have to find another economic base, just like we're having to do right now.
 
#20 ·
[ QUOTE ]
I think there ought to be a bit more manual labor going on in our jails as well. Not college and 8 hrs a day of HBO.

[/ QUOTE ]
Here, Here. I agree totally. I believe that this is the labor pool that should be drawn upon to do the jobs that "American workers don't want to do".
 
#21 ·
[ QUOTE ]
I know a fair amount of Chinese, one of them being a college educated doctor working for a drug company. Her expertise is cancer research. She makes approximately $500/month US, and owns two very nice homes, one inside and one outside of Beijing. She's living pretty damn good I would say, at $500 a month.

[/ QUOTE ]

What would an equivalent salary be in the US, may $10,000/month? This person is working for 1/20th of her US counterpart and yet she appears to be able to afford the same luxuries of her US counterpart. I venture that she is the exception and not the norm of the Chinese society.

-- Mike
 
#22 ·
[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
I also noted that someone mentioned that China uses Criminals to work in factories thus keeping the prices low. That has not been my experience.

Actually I was wondering....this is a problem how?

[/ QUOTE ]

By itself prison labor isn't a problem, but there are said to be [/i[] two practices that make it questionable in my mind.

ne is that the work is being done for private (more or less) businesses. Other companies are competing with Chinese companies who have a zero-cost labor force - essentially they're using slave labor.

The second alleged practice is that the company owners are well-connected individuals who can call on their friends in government whenever they need more workers. If there are none, the officials will go out and arrest as many as needed on trumped-up charges, convict them and sentence them to work in the factory. In exchange the officials get nice fat bribes.

I have read in several places that this is happening. While I have no proof, it's quite believable to me.
 
#23 ·
Isn't it interesting that when these "save the rest of the world first" guys suddenly become unemployed because someone in another country is willing to do their job for much less, they'll be the first to cry? The first to ask for help, the first to expect the government to help.

He He - I guess these guys think if they become unemployed and end up in trouble, someone in China will send them a day's wages --- $1.
 
#24 ·
The reason the Japanese companies began to manufacture vehicles in the US was to avoid any import duty. It started with Yamaha and Honda when the US imposed a 50% import duty on motorcycles to help Harley survive. (Harley still went broke because the quality of their product tanked under the leadership of AMF.) In reality the big import duty (or tax) only did one thing, shift the way the Japaniese did business in the US, and not for the better.

As it was reported some time ago on 60 minutes, the Japanese companies that build vehicles in plants on US soil play a dirty little tax game that in essence involved three separate companies that appear to be only one to the consumer. A vehicle is constructed and park out on the lot of the manufacturing plant. The manufacturing plant is the first separate company. The manufacturing entity sells the vehicle on paper to the second company that is based off shore in a country that is very tax friendly such as the Bahamas for at or near the cost to build the vehicle. Then the off shore company resells the vehicle at a "marked up" price to the third player in the game, the marketing company that provides the vehicle to the dealerships. The "marked up" price that the marketing company pays for the vehicle (which is still parked at the manufacturing plant, it has not moved) is at or near the price the dealer pays for the vehicle.

As you can see, the manufacturing company did not make a profit so it doesn't owe any US taxes, and the marketing company sold the vehicle to the dealer for little or no profit so it doesn't owe any taxes either. But the off shore company that made a big profit from a product that was manufactured and sold in the US pays NO taxes in the United States because it's not an American company and never sets foot on our soil. The same holds true when the vehicle is built off shore, it is sold to the dealer for "no profit" so we the tax paying people of the United States of America GET NOTHING ON THE PROFIT MADE BY A FORIEN COMPANY PRODUCING WEALTH IN OUR COUNTRY!!!!!

If the Big Three did not have to pay taxes either it wouldn't matter what the unions wanted and every vehicle would be made to top quality with more gadgets than one could dream up. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/usflag.gif Hence, NO RICE BURNERS IN MY STABLE!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/usflag.gif

Kriss
 
#25 ·
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I know a fair amount of Chinese, one of them being a college educated doctor working for a drug company. Her expertise is cancer research. She makes approximately $500/month US, and owns two very nice homes, one inside and one outside of Beijing. She's living pretty damn good I would say, at $500 a month.

[/ QUOTE ]

What would an equivalent salary be in the US, may $10,000/month? This person is working for 1/20th of her US counterpart and yet she appears to be able to afford the same luxuries of her US counterpart. I venture that she is the exception and not the norm of the Chinese society.

-- Mike

[/ QUOTE ]

I would venture that she is the exception in the same way her US counterpart is the exception in OUR society. The point was that wages are relative. Five hundred a month here wouldn't provide for any real standard of living at all. Not unless you had yourself a handful of room mates. Over there that money allows you to live DAMN well.

It's one of the reasons I don't buy the "cheap Chinese labor junk" attitude that people have. What we consider "cheap" are good wages in China and can hire quality workers. If what we are buying is junk it's because junk is all we are willing to pay for.

In India a well paid factory worker pulls in $200-$250 a month give or take. On that kind of money he supports a family and lives pretty well. And I'll tell you what, for that money they work and work hard. I don't mean work hard as in ABUSED, but in the sense they put in a solid days work for their money. IOW, they earn their money. To be honest they slap the snot out of the average US factory worker. I know some will probably get all indignant over that statement but that's the way it is. I've put in plenty of foot miles in MANY different factories in this country from all the Big 3 to Alcoa, International Paper, aircraft manufacturer suppliers, you name it. Many of these companies are the leaders in their respective fields. I've also put in a fair amount of face time in the factories of their like competitors in India, and can say without a doubt they work circles around us.

They're the US 50 years ago.
 
#26 ·
The 3 companies - at least making them here is employing people HERE rather than overseas. As far as the companies paying NO TAXES thats a problem with Congress for letting that happen! --- again, POLITICIANS ON THE TAKE!

Are you guys really willing to lower yourselves to the standard of living of India or China?
 
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