Update on Amsoil research!!

[kokopelli]

WATRD , I agree , like I said before , "This makes a great debate . This one does get chewed on quite a bit . I understand your two camp theory . Where I come from is a slightly different "pitch" on the dino oil . I want the best protection I can get at the most ecconomic cost , kinda like my auto insurance premium .
Thanks for the websites on "oil Education " , I'll be sure to check those out . The more one knows the more educated decisions they can make on any given topic .
I first heard of Amsoil in the late 70's or early 80's and know people who swear by it . I'm sure your decision to join the synthetic zealots camp is a valid decision for you because you're right you can win either way , the difference is the cost factor . In your case the extra "margin of safety "you get gives you peace of mind that justifies the extra cost for you . I'm glad you don't buy into the 35,000 mile change intervals which seems to be where I loose it with synthetics . Just where do you draw the line on decding how often to change it . In my mind, If I change it at 3000 miles intervals , I might as well run petroleum and save the extra cost . For me , it's not worth the the cost for the "extra margin of safety ". I got a chuckle out of your comment about 3000 mile intervals reccomended by oil manufacturers and "Express" change joints . Do you remember when they used to reccomend every 2000 miles until the Feds forced Auto Manufactuers to increase the intervals on their maintenance schedule to 6-7500 miles .
I can even justify the cost of synthetics , if you bought it new and planned to run it until the wheels fell off of it , however ; not everyone plans to join the 300,000 mile club . I believe the average comsumer who trades vehicles every 2-3 years and believes that they are getting "superior protection" worth paying consierably more for from synthetic oil is seriously misguided , especially if they buy the false ecconomics of dramatically exended change intervals , running good oil through a dirty filter. The reliability of today engines are engineered into them , not poured into the crank case .

Ya'pays Ya' money , then Ya' picks Ya' poison...... [img]images/graemlins/AR15firing.gif[/img]

By the way..... What is a quart of Amsoil Synthetic going for these days ?

[WATRD]

You have an interesting take on the subject. Not so far to the dino side that you refuse to see any benefit to synthetics, but not crossing over into synth territory either [img]images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I in the same spot, just on the other side of the fence. I completely back those who make the decision to stick with dino juice, but synth works for me [img]images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Your assertions are both convincing and obviously, well thought out, so it's fun to read how you made your decision.

In my case, it IS my intention to keep this rig until the Sierra Club weedles the government into closing all my trails and into outlawing the internal combustion engine. But that is another story. I am willing to pay for any advantage that I can get. In the same way that you are looking for "cost effectiveness", if I dare summarize your "insurance" example, I am looking for anything that might give my engine a leg up on a longer life under the conditions that I subject it to. That to me IS cost effective. [img]images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I have run dino oil and it always seemed to do fine, but the arguments for synthetic make sense to my mind and a couple of extra dollars an oil change seem to be a small price to pay for the protection and for the peace of mind, as you put it.

I do agree with your filter logic. Keep it clean. Even those who recommend the the REALLY long change intervals with synthetic will agree that the filter needs to be changed more frequently than the oil does. Most who run extended intervals above 10k miles will change out the filter at 5k or less and top up the oil at that point.


BTW, a quart of the Amsoil "Series 2000 0W30 that I run goes for $6.45 these days.

[muddytaco]

I was just about to answer your question, but Rob got it. The amsoil isn't that much more expensive. $6.45 is what I payed too. The interesting thing is, they say to run the oil for no more than a year regardless of miles, but you can go up to 35,000 miles. Which, I will never do, becasue I wouldn't run 35,000 miles in a year!!!!

But they do recommend to change you filter every 6 months or 10,000 miles (something like that). So they do have one up on us about the whole running clean oil through the dirty filter! It's not a scam, they know thier oil!
I was also impressed with the filter bypass kits, and secondary filter options they offer to prevent the oil changes frequently!

For me.. I am not going to go that far. No sense in pushing it. There is no reason why I can't change my oil twice a year.... every 5,000 miles or so. I plan on doing what works for me. Checking the oil, analyzing it, and finding what length of time I feel is good for my truck

There is so much room for debate on this subject, and everyone has a valid point.... and honestly EVERYone is right in a way! So I just suck up the advice, and way the options, and make my own decision. Which, is what everyone should do!
Have an open mind.... Noone knows Everything that is right for YOU!

By the way Rob, thanks for helping me out and answering my questions. And thansk to everyone else for giving their honest opinions. Ive learned alot about oil!! HA HA

And I recommend checking out the Motor Oil Bible Too. it has alot of useful info!!

[WATRD]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
By the way Rob, thanks for helping me out and answering my questions.

[/ QUOTE ]

My pleasure. May your oil contribute to your seeing many happy miles in your Toyota, regardless of which oil you choose [img]images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[kokopelli]

Rob , A simple question relating to this oil debate !


What is the actual reccomended Redline on a Toyota 4 0r 6 cylinder ? The higher your "R's the more protection you need .

My Tach only goes to 8,000 RPM......... [img]images/graemlins/AR15firing.gif[/img]

[WATRD]

I can't speak to the 4 cyl, but on a 6 cyl, the rev limiter kicks in at 5,500 +/-

You can see the effects of the limiter on the sheets from my last dyno run at http://www.watrd.com/Dyno/ Just before the graph starts to drop off in a hurry, the limiter has kicked in.

I was a double ASE Master Certified mechanic in 2000 with Ford schooling, as well as others.
When we were learning about oils and the debates between syn/pet we were shown under a microscope the shape of the molecules of the different oils. The petro based oils were hexogonal or abnormally shaped pretty much all around. The Synthetics were round pretty much.
This to me proved that running a synthectic oil would be better for your engine, also increasing gas mileage and less engine wear from the molecule on up. As there is less stiction while running synthetic oils. That in my mind is also while they are able to run a little longer between oil changes as they aren't causing stiction in your engine causing run smoother all around, whereas the pertroleom based oils are causing a little more stiction and the need for oil changes sooner.
NOW saying that, in light of the newer oils, engines and all of that nowadays, any vehicle can run 5000 on either oil no problem. There will just be more "gunk" in the petro filter at the end of the day.
The reason Toyota says you can run 7500 miles between oil changes nowadays running either oil is due to the advancements in engine building(tolerances) better oils, and filters.
I run Mobil 1 in all my vehicles and always have. It is a personal preference, and has nothing to do with knowing it is the best out there or whatever.
This Amsoil thing to me has gotten WAY out of hand. The guy that touts it on these forums. Gizmo or whatever, gets paid a finders fee for getting people to buy the oil and filters through him. So he will show you and tell you anything you want to hear to get you to buy it. I was a Country Sales Manager and know all the ways to get things sold.
Sure Amsoil is good, sure their filters are good. So are K&amp;N and what I personally run TRD, it is the same basically as a K&amp;N except it has more filter square footage which equates to better filtration. I also paid the $60 for it for the same reason I use mobil 1, I like it, I like the TRD name, and I like the filter, it is EXTREMELY durable and will last forever. The amsoil filters look like after a while you might have to buy a new one due to the secondary foam breaking down from cleaning or whatever, but for $25, thats a great deal.
I just don't buy into the Amsoil is god theory, and people changing EVERY fluid in their vehicle to it. I read a post from someone that did, and thought to myself, that must have cost $200-$300!!!
Using the right oil for your climate, changing it every 7500, along with the filter is the key. I do think for really older vehicles that use a QT. of oil between changes could use a magnetic oil filter ring to catch the minute shavings that are in the oil from an engine in the 200,000 range.
Just my humble opinion,
Chezman

[kokopelli]

Chezman , Okay , synthetic molecules are round . Are they squishy or hard? Petroleum molecules are hexagon or irregular shapped . Are they squishy or hard ,is it more like rolling a pencil on a desk top or what ?

.........I remember when synthetic lubricants first came out some people were experiencing main seals breaking down prematurly after changing their vehicles over in their original petroleum supplied engines . Has this problem ever been adressed by the lubricant manufactureres or by seal manufacturers . Does this trouble still exsist , that anyone has heard of ?

Anyway........ I worked for General Electric Co for 22 years , manufacturing 16 cylinder , 8000 horsepower , Diesel Engines for use in locomotives , ships , power generating plants and oil drilling equipment . Some of these engines were turbocharged . Pistons were 10 inches in diameter , a main bearing cap weighed 1oo pounds each . The engine block casting weighed 10 tons when it came into the facility from the foundry , before it was machined . A complete engine weighed 50 Tons . It was not unusual to have these engines run continually at high RPM or sometimes idle for days during their ten year lifespans . Normally they were ran constantly except when shut off for maintenance . It was quite an experience seeing each part of these engines being manufactured and then assembled and finally ran in test cells to have the final adjustments made before shipping them . Each engine held approximatly 150 gallons of oil. GE put there money on petroleum based products to protect these monsters .

Can you say..... Varooooooooooooooooooooooom..... [img]images/graemlins/AR15firing.gif[/img]

[muddytaco]

The other main factor of the molecules in a synthetic vs. a petroleum isn't only the shape but the size!

A petroleum based oil is natural (obviously) so the molucules or the contents of the oil tend to be all different shapes and sizes, very inconsistent. When the breakdown of the oil occurs it easily breaks down the smaller molecules first, lowering the original lubricating ability of the oil. That's what leaves that sludge and builup in your engine and filter, which only increases as you run the oil, eventually leaving it worthless.

With a synthetic based oil, the contents in the oil are engineered to have the best possible qualities. So, because of the problems with petroleum based oils, the synthetics are engineered with not only perfectly round particles... they are also all the same size. This prevents the early breakdown of smaller particles (because the don't exist).
In return, you get longer life out of the oil, and more consistent lubricating qualities. Tha's why they can recommend longer drain intervals.

I apologize for the use of terms
( molecules, particles, contents, pieces, parts... all the same $hit.) You know what I mean! [img]images/graemlins/40BEER.gif[/img]

[brayboy]

Man, I'm really liking this post. I wish that I could give my point of view, but I can't. I was going to change over to synthetic after my initial break-in period, but my 3.4 filter is so hard to get to. So now I'm at 55,000 miles and I too am worried about the seal problem and have the same question as kokopelli. Does anyone have the experience of changing over from petro ot synthetic after say 35,000 miles or more? Toyota engines, like the 22re or the 3.0 have had a knack for seal leaks at the 100,000 mark or so. Maybe this is a result of petro-based oil, but I have heard that changing over would result in immidiate leaks. But if I had to do over again, I would go synthetic, but would have to stretch out my change intervals to the 10,000 mile mark. And I realy need an oil filter relocation kit. Bray. [img]images/graemlins/40BEER.gif[/img]