Update on Amsoil research!!

[kokopelli]

I continue to run petroleum based " Name Brand " motor oil in the 10w40 variety in what ever brand I can find on sale the cheapest . Todays motor oil with the high tech addatives far exceeds what was being produced 20 years ago . I change it every 3000 to 5000 miles or every 90 days , depending on the driving conditions . Consecutive highway miles I'll run out to 5000 miles , short trip , cold weather and trailer hauling get changed at 3000 miles I was taught that changing the filter is more important than changing the oil . Like transmission fluid , heat is the biggest enemy of engine oil . You can filter out the dirt. The Life of an engine is predictable by the temperature it runs at. that's a scientific fact that has ben proven in research . Using regular motor oil , changing the filter often and running an oil cooler will result in longer engine life at a more ecconomical cost than those fancy synthetics .
I don't know what you guys pay per quart for that stuff, but I'll put the savings in my retirment fund . Maybe you think , I'm old fashioned , but hey ! I grew up near Titusville , PA ; the place where oil was discovered . Back then they didn't even know what to do with the stuff ! Thank God the internal combustion engine came along and made the oil companies wealthy .
Synthetics came out in the early 1980's , five years after the world energy shortage . Everyone back then everyone was positive we were going to run out of crude because of the " Arab" Oil Embargo . Americans were having fuel rationed and standing in long lines on "even" and "odd" days to purchase enough gas to commute to work . They started exploring " alternative fuels" like ethanol and blends with the help of government funding for research and developement AND tax incentives for companies participating . Synthetics oils were being developed to help ease the energy shortage and become an petroleum replacement someday . They promises extended change intervals and increased fuel milage . Twenty five years later they're still pumping the stuff(crude] out of the ground faster than ever and still fighting wars over crude . The price of gas continues to rise . Oh , sure this resoure can't last forever I realize this . Synthetic oil isn't any more popular today than it was back when it came out and they're still arguing over how long you can run it. Everyone talks about how good it is , but everyone is afraid to run it as long as it isreccomended . It does make a great debate though . There have been some converts over the years , but I'm betting the "Average Joe " will never realize the difference especially at the cost . You really can't judge how good a product is by the cost per quart , synthetic or petroleum . My Tacoma has 60 K on it and it doesn't use a drop between oil changes and never really gets that dirty or dark looking . I believe my Tacoma will go as many miles as yours does ......if either of us choose to keep it that long to prove it.
In conclusion , run decent oil and change it and the filter often . If you want to do something to make the engine last longer than normal , add an oil cooler . My theory is that Five quarts (full)of regular oil is better than a dirty filter and two quarts low of of the Best stuff .
OK guys you can start throwing the rocks now !

There is NO such things as coincidence ..... [img]images/graemlins/AR15firing.gif[/img]

kokopelli [Rudy]

[broken]

sooooo........ your like OLD!!!!!!!!!!!!

im still shocked to see Kids today buying beer that were born in 83 ????? where the hell does the time go ????
[img]images/graemlins/AR15firing.gif[/img]

[Gnarly4X]

I agree with Koko. I've tried all kinds of oils, syns, and filters. I'm back to Castrol GTX 10-40 for summer and 10-30 for winter (Arizona). There was a big study done by Consumer Reports back around 1992 with 22 New York taxi cabs over 9 months. They couldn't find and significant difference in wear from different oil brands, and synthetics. The only real advantage I found in syns is it has better flow characteristics in low ambient temperatures. If I lived in an extreme cold climate, I'd be running synthetic oils. I wouldn't even dream of running any motor oil past about 7,500. I've always changed my oil and filter every 3,000 miles. I have over 265K on my original 1985 22R and it still only uses about 1.25 quarts between changes, no blow-by. There is no significant cost/performance benefits to synthetic oil over petroleum-based. That's just my humble, lubricated, opinion.
Gnarls.

[kokopelli]

Gnarly4X , Thank you for your reply ! You mentioned that synthetic oil "may" be better for extreme cold weather . The application I overlookd where synthetics "may" have a benifit is in TUBO appliation where the beariing spin extremely fast and generate a lot of heat , because of the exhaust ; but that's a maybe . There are usually kits avalible that continue to pump oil to the turbo bearings after the engine is shut off . The purpose of this is to cool them . I'm my opinion this would be preferable . They have this problem on the Buick GNX and if I'm not mistaken the bearings carbonize (baked on oil ?)which shortens the life considerably .

[kokopelli]

TJ , I never conntended that the Amsoil isn't good . What I said is that ,"with a few exceptions (high heat , high RPM and extreme cold), I don't think it is any more benificial for the average person than petroleun products that cost considerably less ".
Maybe , you can run it out to 10,000 miles or change oil twice a year , it's still being passed through a very small capacity filter . Even if the oil can take it , I think I'd be changing filters @ 5000 miles . A clogged filter will pop off a pressure release valve inside of it when it becomes clogged and the oil will continue to circulate through your engine unfiltered after that .
As I mentioned in a previous post on tranny fluid , my youngest Son was empolyed at an "Express" oil change business . They are now required to crush all used filters to recover any oil inside of them for recycling . It has been his experience that , He can tell the difference in physical weight of a used filter , by holding it in his hand ,in direct correlation to the milage obtained from it .
Engine life isn't something you can purchase and pour out of a bottle . It's a product of a carefully adhered to maintenance plan driven by eccomomics . What you benifit from , for the "cost" it , over the "lifetime" of the vehicle . Sometimes you pay for the "reputation " of a product which in turn gives you assurance and peace of mind . Sometimes we pay for a better product, one that is superior in performance than the competition . Othertimes we purchase products that promise something (marketing hype) that may or may not live up to expectations (similar to T B spacers or the K&N Ram Air set up) that make us feel like we did something special .
The choice is individual preference . Each of us chose what we think is best for "Us". I still contend that changing filters often and adding an oil cooler will increase engine life "more" than what ever type of oil we choose to run . Unless , there is a proven need for a special product for ones specific application , such running at redline most of the time as a racer might do .
Maybe , I'm not much of a gambler and don't want to risk what I have proven to myself through my personal experience , my stratagy that worked for me for 35 years . Possibly I'm just Old fashioned and just not receptive to new high tech products . One thing for sure is that "change" occures very slowly in this world . Some are pioneers in proving new ideas and others resist them .I only know what HAS worked for me ......... [img]images/graemlins/AR15firing.gif[/img]

[broken]

does anyone know what the safe operating temp of the tacomas are suposed to be id put an oil cooler on mine but i dont want it to run too cool ??

[muddytaco]

I feel exactly the same way as you kokopelli. Trust me I didn't take what you said in any wrong way possible. I prefer all the criticizm that people can dish out. As long as they have valid points. I hate it when someone tells you "dont' use that stuff... It sucks!" What does that teach you? Nothing!!!

I feel, along with any true mechanic, there are ways that you feel things work best. And you will learn those things along the way. That is why you can't be taught everything! The best mechanics are the ones who have been doing it for years, adn know everythign FROM EXPERIENCE!

In my shop we also have to crush the filters ( EPA crap), and I actually have noticed what you were saying about how heavy a used filter is... It's wierd! One can only imagine the parts of your engine sitting in that filter.. ha ha.

You had an extremely good point about the filters getting clogged sooner than you oil goes bad... that is probably why Amsoil sells a filter bypass kit with a secondary filter!! HA HA how conveinient!!

Take it easy man... You are going to be a great addition to this forum. We need some new knowledge, some of the "old hands" are starting to fade out slowly!!

[kokopelli]

TJ , Thank you for NOT taking offense to my posts , I assure you I haven't taken any offense to yours . I never intended to be critical , only present another perspective . You're right about one thing for sure , this is how we all learn . If someone says , "don't do that it sucks , we learn nothing . If they preesent a perspective and back it with personal experience or scientific data , we all can gain forn their research , knowledge and experience , which is why I like this site so much . I've learned a lot from you all and thank you all for sharing with me . I didn't know that Amsoil made a filter bypass kit w/a secondary filter . It does make sense though if they reccomend going 35,000 miles between changes . It sounds like the bypass set up would be an ideal place to pipe in the oil cooler too . What I do try to do here is present a perspective that reflects my past experiences that the younger guys just couldn't have experienced . The automotive industry has changed so dramatically over the past 20 years . It would have been impossible for me to envision "maintenance free batteries" , "Radial Tires" , "front wheel drive" , "electronic fuel injection" , "electronic ignition" and vehicles from the factory toting Aluminum wheels . Even 4 X 4's were a rare ocurance as a daily driver for the average person when I started wrenching . When Crysler came out with their FWD Mini-Vans in the 80's I laughed and was certain they'd be a flop , boy was I proven wrong . In about 1969 or so Oldsmobile produced the "Toronado" a front twheel drive luxury sport sedan . When they quit producing ir the stated that the Americam public would not "Accept" the increased maintenance costs involed in a front wheel drive vehicle over a rear wheel drive . A few years later the VW Rabbits came out and became exremely impressive and popular . In the early 70's the Japanese inports started showing up with front wheel drive and became an instant success story . Besides providing better traction in adverse conditions , front wheel drive was developed as a weight and friction savings in the drive train , which translated to better fuel ecconomy after goverment mandated imrovements generated from the "Energy Crisis I mentioned before . Subaru , started with the front wheel drive full time and the rear wheels engaging for 4WD , and the rest is history . Today almost everyone drives or want's an SUV . I really credit Subaru with the concept of the SUV stemming from their popularization of the 4 X 4 station wagon that really took off in 1980 when they completely redesiged the bodies and increasing the wheel base , making them more practical and comfortable to drive . They DO make a great vehicle still today . If I didn't drive a Toyota , I'd probably drive a Subaru . I really appreciate the compliment that you gave me , you thinking I will make a welcome addition to the site as an "old hand " that means a lot to me. Let me reassure you that they younger guys have a lot to offer old farts like me . You younger guys are blossoming in the middle of all this high tech and the training you recieve is top notch and state of the art . I look foward to reading the posts daily and almost always learn something . If somebody could just help me with changing the radio channels on my CD equiped reciever with the removable face plate without getting out the manual every time I want to switch between AM & FM I'd be extremely grateful . Stay Kewl TJ , you're a leader in this forum and I respect you for that . You have valuable experience we can ALL learn from and when you don't know , you're not afraid to ask , THAT is a trait to be admired .
Maybe someday I'll have the privilage of getting my Taco muddy next to yours .

Until then " KEEP ON POSTING ' ....... [img]images/graemlins/AR15firing.gif[/img]

[kokopelli]

broken , I don't believe that you could possibly lower the teperature of your oil below the reccomended operating temperature reccomended by Toyota by using an aftermarket oil cooler if you size it properly. It would seem to me that engine oil would have to remain at the "minimum" , the "operating "temperature betermined by by the cooling system for the engine , regulated by the thermostat or approximately 195 degrees . If my memory serves me corretly , you are only trying to lower the oil (Which is different from coolant temp)temperature by 10 to 20 degrees . This becomes significant over the life of an oil change . If you change your oil every 3000 miles and calculate your average vehicle speed at 60 MPH , you will have effectively lowered the oil temp by 20 degrees for over 50 hours or over 100 hours at 30MPH . You can do the math for different speeds , oil change intervals or temperature drops ..... [img]images/graemlins/AR15firing.gif[/img]

[WATRD]

An interesting thread covering a much hashed and rehashed topic.

Fortunately, this is a popular topic on most automotive related boards, so there is an abundance of information and opinion on the net.

People seem to fall into one of two camps on this topic and both are represented in this thread. The "dino oil works for me" camp and the synthetic zealots camp.

As was previously mentioned, there is a lot to digest to get a handle on lubricants. Total Base Numbers, Suspended Solids, Thermal/Viscosity Breakdown, Metal Contamination, it never ends. If you are interested in learning more about oil in general, what it does and why you should care, download a copy of the "Motor Oil Bible", visit "BobIsTheOilGuy.com" or read up on your favorite boards for the experiences of those who have been at this for a while. I recommend you sample all three options, so you can get as balanced an "education" as is possible.

For anyone who might have wondered, I fall into the synthetic zealots camp [img]images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I have been wrenching on various vehicles since the mid seventies and have only owned one vehicle that was consistantly hard enough on oil that it failed analysis regularly. As I see it, you can win either way, dino or synth, but I have seen enough benefits to synth that I choose to use it for my current applications. Yes, a rig can go hundreds of thousands of miles on dino juice, many have, especially if it and the filter are changed regularly. But for me, the extra margine of safety that I get with synth makes sense, not to mention that while I don't fully buy into the three oil changes in 100,000 miles hype, I do tend to push changes well beyond the artificial 3k mark that some oil manufacturers and quickie change places chant like a mantra. Of course I monitor my oil and thus my engine regularly with oil analysis to be on the look out for looming problems [img]images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]