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diff. between T18 & T19?

17K views 17 replies 2 participants last post by  tsm1mt 
#1 ·
#5 ·
Actually, according to IH, they never used the wide-ratio T18 in anything.

The T98, wide-box, unsync'd 4spd was used in the pickups/Travelalls though.

The cut off for Scouts was '75 and earlier = close T18, '75 and newer = close or wide T19.

In 1975, it could be any of the three (close18, close19,wide19)

 
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#6 ·
What 4 speed trannies were available in the pickups/Travelall's besides the T98? Any other wide-ratio's (i.e. NP435)? Any close ratios? Thanks!

The Warden

1980 International-Harvester Scout II SD-33T in the ICU

looking for a running IH pickup for trade
 
#7 ·
4spds for Trucks

FAIK, the only 4spds offered in the Pickup/Travelall lines was the T98 wide-4spd non-sync 1st, and at the end of the production run - maybe as early as '73, but I've heard of a few '74s I think and definitely an option for '75, the T19 4spd in close or wide ratio.

The Scouts got the T19 in '75, so I'm not positive the pickups would have it in '74 or earlier, but I tried to buy a '73 WagonMaster 3/4T 4x4 with a close T19 (of course, it also had a rebuilt non-IC 392..)

I don't know what transmissions might have been used "way back when" - but the T98 has been around since at least the 60s.

I don't believe the NP435 was ever used in the Light Line - I *think* I've heard rumors of it's use in Loadstars and such, but I can't confirm.

*I* don't really see a need for an NP435 if you can have a T98. Not a lot different there. The T98 should have a 6.32:1 granny (I think) vs. the NP435s, what, 7:1?

I'm not too familiar with the 3spds. Most that I've seen were column shift units. I bet most of the later (70s) trucks/T'alls had automatics or the T98. My 1972 1110 Travelall has a 727.

And, of course, let's not forget the T34/T35/T36 IH built 5spds used.

If you want to step up to larger trucks (for trans swaps) you can find lots of fun stuff.. 9spd Fuller RoadRangers (I looked at a 1960 V-220 with a 549 and 9spd), 4spd Allison automatics, etc.

-Tom
 
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#8 ·
Re: 4spds for Trucks

Tom, thanks for your response!

One more question...how common are the 5 speeds in pickups/Travelalls? I'm looking at one of each; a '67 Travelall with a 4 speed, and a '70 pickup...and I don't know what tranny the pickup has, other than being a manual. Be nice to have an O/D 5 speed, especially with fuel prices in the SF Bay Area /wwwthreads_images/icons/shocked.gif/wwwthreads_images/icons/frown.gif

Also, although I'm sure this is a pipe dream, how hard would it be to swap from a 4 speed to a 5 speed? And, on average, how hard are 5 speeds to find? I don't think I've ever seen one...

The Warden

1980 International-Harvester Scout II SD-33T in the ICU

looking for a running IH pickup for trade
 
#9 ·
Re: 4spds for Trucks

My understanding is they're not very common. They're also not widely regarded as improving fuel mileage since the older OD designs didn't always reduce FRICTION in the transmission itself.

Also, the OD is rare, and doesn't make for the most driveable transmission with it's odd shift pattern and large "holes"

My understanding is the swap is do-able - since they came that way from the factory.

You would need the bellhousing, 5spd, and probably some shift linkage from the donor truck. I'm not sure if you'll need the 12 or 13" clutch hardware that goes with it. School buses are a good candiate, along with larger Loadstar trucks - but I don't think the OD 5spd is easy to happen upon.
 
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#10 ·
Re: 4spds for Trucks

I see...probably not worth the effort. Maybe see about getting one of those U.S. Gear splitters. /wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif

One last thing...this just popped into mind. Is the T-98 a Borg Warner tranny, or was it built by IH like the 5 speeds? I realized that I've never heard it specifically referred to as being BW, and the numbering is certainly different from the T-18/T-19.

Again, thanks! /wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif

The Warden

1980 International-Harvester Scout II SD-33T in the ICU

looking for a running IH pickup for trade
 
#12 ·
Re: 4spds for Trucks

The US Gear unit would be pretty cool - particularly if you combined it with a slushbox instead. A 4spd Allison from a medium duty IH with a Gear Vendors OD coupled to the tailhousing could be setup to automatically split-shift the Allison 4spd into an 8spd automatic - 7 speeds plus an OD.

I've started looking at a few "bigger" IHs in my search for the proper tow-rig.. one of the vehicles I keep looking at is a certain IH Loadstar 1600. 345V8, Allison 4spd, Rockwell Transfer Case.. Dana70F, IH dually rear end.. 4-door, 8' flatbed with a 20,000lbs GVW.

But it has 6.17 gears.

BUT.. after looking at a bunch of trucks at RMIHR and NWBRU this summer, the solution is not a Gear Vendors OD ($2k?), but rather a divorce mounted "Brownie Box" or 2spd/3spd aux tranny.

These can be had for well under $1000 (maybe as little as $200-$300). Mount it between the transmission and the transfer case, and you can set yourself up with not only an Overdive, but also an underdrive, and the chance to split shift all of the 4spd's gears.

There was a 1970s IH short-box 3/4T pickup that had been converted for "serious" 5th wheel duty at RMIHR - custom utility bed, dually rear end, 392V8, IH 5spd, with a 3spd Brownie. I think the truck was only 2wd, but he had 15 forward gears to choose from.

As for the T98.. I'm pretty sure it's a Borg Warner unit. You can find many T18s with a T98 top-cover. I guess they're interchangeable, and the factory had a bunch of left over T98 top covers.. ;)

-Tom
 
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#13 ·
Re: 4spds for Trucks

Why do you think it'd be better with an auto? Actually, a third truck just came into the picture. It's a '73 1110 4x2 with a 345 and 727 auto. I prefer sticks as a general rule, but god! that truck drove beautifully...even with the auto, I think I'd take it over that Travelall (the Travelall's seen better days :( ) depending on what the deal winds up being. 'Sides, my hip's not in that good a shape, and I may be better off only using one leg to drive...but that's another story. I don't know that much about the US Gear/Gear Vendors OD units, except that I once heard that a US Gear's best with a stick (and any 4x4 unless you only wanted to use it in 2 wheel), and that a GV's best with an auto. The other question is, of course...do they even have IH applications, or would something need to be retrofitted?

Thanks all for your help :)

The Warden

1980 International-Harvester Scout II SD-33T in the ICU

looking for a running IH pickup for trade
 
#14 ·
Re: 4spds for Trucks

>Why do you think it'd be better with an auto?

Well, I was told they're available for the auto. ;) I also think an 8spd auto would be a pretty nice thing to have.

>I prefer sticks as a general rule

Same here. My racer is the only vehicle I put an auto in on purpose.. my Travelall was $200 and came with a rebuilt 727 in it.. so how could I refuse?

>The other question is, of course...do they even have IH
>applications, or would something need to be retrofitted?

I believe they're available for the 727 automatic - very doubtful for the T98, or even the T19. And since it's really a 2wd 727 that you're adapting it to, you would be able to use the OD in 4wd, too.

BUT.. don't rule out the much cheaper aux. "brownie" boxes - I think those would work very well with a 4spd stick. Divorce mount it (dunno if they were offered married?) between the NP205 and the 4spd, and you could use it to split shift.

If you want to TOW, I think split-shifting all the gears is more important than OD. OTOH, if you just want to go fast, the OD can help that, too. ;)

So I guess a good question is - what do you want to do with this truck?
 
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#15 ·
Gearboxes and stuff

>So I guess a good question is - what do you want to do with this truck?

First and foremost, a daily driver. Need something to get to and from school without getting pulled over (that's why I've basically given up on my Scout II...can't afford to rebuild the engine and it looks like there's a fog machine under the hood). Also needs to be able to do a 400 or so mile drive on a regular basis (I'm in the San Francisco area, and have family in the Los Angeles area). Even though it's two wheel drive, I'll probably do a little bit of playing around in the desert (don't laugh too hard; my dad used to take his '92 Chrysler LeBaron off-roading before he got his old Ford pickup, which in spite of the 3" body lift and the 33" tires, is also a 2 wheel drive with an open rear end aka one wheel drive). It'll also see occasional use as a tow rig for a fairly small trailer or small boats and stuff (like speedboats and such). Safety is the number one concern; second is reliability; third is fuel mileage, and power as a 4th. Don't need to worry about going faster; I tend to stick to the speed limit (drive real conservative for my age). I really just need something to go from Point A to Point B (the Nissan diesel was actually well-suited for me, other than the cracked piston) and can do whatever I need it to do, and run relatively inexpensive (I know a 345 isn't exactly on the EPA's Gold Star list, but 13 or 14MPG would make me happy; I always figure on 8MPG as an average with V-8's).

How do the Brownie boxes work with automatics? I don't know much about them, but I seem to recall something about them basically being a mini-manual transmission with a separate shifter lever in the cab. That sounds like it'd need a clutch to operate...so, again, how would that work with a 727? I've read a little bit about the U.S. Gear unit, but I know next-to-nothing about the Gear Vendors unit. If memory serves, with the U.S. Gear unit and an auto tranny, you need to shift into Neutral to shift the box. I dunno...what would be real nice would be an over-under unit, so I could get a somewhat granny gear and an overdrive. Maybe someday when I have unlimited money...I think, for now, I'm best off with just an overdrive; would use it more than an underdrive.

I like thie idea of splitting all the shifts, too...although it'd be nice to have something where doing so was an option (as opposed to a real split rear where you have to unless you wanna break stuff). Again, day-to-day driving in Bay Area traffic is a serious consideration...another advantage of an auto as opposed to a clutch (my hip's messed enough already without hitting the clutch every 10 seconds). GOD, I'll miss shifting, though...maybe use the lever on the auto and shift for myself that way. /wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif

The Warden

1980 International-Harvester Scout II SD-33T in the ICU

looking for a running IH pickup for trade
 
#16 ·
Re: Gearboxes and stuff

> Safety is the number one concern; second is reliability;
>third is fuel mileage, and power as a 4th.

So I must ask - why are you so excited about an OD then? Safety doesn't care, and reliability would proably be higher WITHOUT an OD (complexity would be lower, anyhow).

I don't think mileage, typically, will vary a whole lot with an IH truck whether you have OD or not. If you want to lower the highway RPM, go with taller tires or taller gears and just lower your final drive ratio.

If you're not planning on towing a big load often, you probably don't need 4.88 gears in a pickup. ;-)

Besides.. think how much gas (even at today's prices) you can buy for the $2k price tag of one of the OD units!

>Don't need to worry about going faster; I tend to stick to
>the speed limit (drive real conservative for my age)

I don't tend to exceed 75mph, either.. but I'd still prefer we didn't have a speedlimit again. I have a few cars in my fleet that I wouldn't hesitate to take beyond 75mph.

I drove a '99 Outback home from Billings during the winter (of '98/99).. 95mph felt just fine.. even though they closed I-90 behind us. ;)

>How do the Brownie boxes work with automatics?

The Brownie is an aux trans. a 2spd or 3spd manual transmission stuck in the middle of your drivetrain.

you would think you'd need a clutch, and it might help to have one, but typically the brownie doesn't have any syncromesh on the gears, so you have to either sync things up correctly, or double-clutch until you do get the gears lined up right.

I guess that would make the Brownie ideal for a stick-shift 4spd in front of it. With an auto, I'd be temmpted to just shift the brownie into UD, direct, or OD and then let the auto do it's work as usual.

One of the GV/USG boxes can be setup to split-shift automatically with auto - or so I'm told.

More of an issue when pulling a load than just driving around.

I wouldn't object to an OD in any of my 'Binders, but I realize it's probably not worth the bother of hunting one down and swapping it in. If I found a truck with an IH 5spd OD, great.. but, IMO, the benefits are not worth the trouble for the most part

Unless, of course, you have a specific need - like hauling a 20k 5th wheel trailer and needing to split your shifts, or starting off with a truck with REALLY low gears with no source for aftermarket gear sets (like the Loadstar I looked at - the ONLY gearset available for both the Front '70 and the IH rear end is 6.17 ratio, which works out to a 62mph redline speed)
 
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#17 ·
Re: Gearboxes and stuff

>So I must ask - why are you so excited about an OD then? Safety doesn't care,
>and reliability would proably be higher WITHOUT an OD (complexity would be
>lower, anyhow).

I initially figured that fuel mileage would be better with a lower RPM. Also, aren't gassers happier at lower engine speeds when possible?

>I don't tend to exceed 75mph, either.. but I'd still prefer we didn't have a
>speedlimit again. I have a few cars in my fleet that I wouldn't hesitate to
>take beyond 75mph.

I know what you mean. My last car could easily have gone to 80 and stayed there. On the other hand, my Scout II doesn't like going faster than 55...that's Nissan for you *l*

I like the idea of splitting shifts and having more gears to play with /wwwthreads_images/icons/laugh.gif, but I don't need to do so, and you're right; it sounds like more trouble than it's worth.

At this point, it's up in the air...that '73 I mentioned may have been sold /wwwthreads_images/icons/mad.gif so I dunno what's going to happen. Maybe I'll just drive the Scout with a cracked piston...nah; don't want to be left on the side of the road like my first two cars did to me (last VW/Chevy I will ever buy).

Thanks for the help/suggestions!! I'm just hoping the truck issue'll be resolved soon...I wanna Binder I can trust!!

The Warden

1980 International-Harvester Scout II SD-33T in the ICU

looking at a '73 IH 1110 pickup as a trade
 
#18 ·
Re: Gearboxes and stuff

>I initially figured that fuel mileage would be better with a
>lower RPM. Also, aren't gassers happier at lower engine
>speeds when possible?

I thought *diesels* like low RPM.. most are governed well below 3000rpm! Gas motors can be built to cruise comfortably at nearly any (usable) RPM.

IH gas motors were governed in larger trucks at around 3800rpm (3900 for the 304, 3800 for the 345, 3600 for the 392) and were often operated there continously, for hours on end. Think of a big dump truck (or the Loadstar I've mentioned) with a redline speed of 62mph.. you're just an employee, it's not YOUR truck.. the faster you go the sooner you're done, so you just put it down to the floor and let ir run at 3800rpm all day.

As for mileage.. I have a moderately built 345, 4.10 gears, and 33x12.50 ATs (for now) with a 4" lift and a soft-top. I can still best 15mpg on the highway. That's without the ProJection I wanted to use (ECU appears fried).

My cruising speed is around 65/70mph and 3000rpm. I've run this motor at 3,000rpm for 12 hours (with the mandatory every-2-hrs fuel break) while flat-towing my race Scout II to Colorado then up to Seattle and home.

I think I averaged a little under 10mpg on that trip.

> I'm just hoping the truck issue'll be resolved soon...I
>wanna Binder I can trust!!

I'm hoping to be able to drive my '72 Travelall again after this weekend. It's beginning to get cold up here in Montana, and the soft-top on the Scout is awfully drafty, and with the body damage I inflicted this spring, the hardtop isn't an option any more.

-Tom
 
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