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  #1  
Old 09-19-2000, 11:08 AM
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Default Buick V6 Odd-fire (225-231) TBI runs great!

For about a year I have been working on a Throttle Body Fuel Injection (also called "TBI" for Throttle body Injection)
For an Odd-fire Buick V6 engine. I had troubles---I had an even-fire distribitor with an odd-fire cap on it.It ran a carbed
engine OK--- but did not run the closed system TBI worth a darn! I tryed everything-- different chips-- timing the works--One day it I thought that maybe I have the wrong HEI dist body--- So I pulled an old HEI off an odd-fire Buick Skylark and VROOM!!!!!! Now runs the TBI GREAT!!!!--- and has about 25% more power than a Holley 390 carbed Buick V6--- and has instant throttle responce and burns cleaner runs smoother-- WOW--WOW it runs great!!!


My engine is a 1975 231 odd-fire Buick V6-- it is a .50 bored 225 block and is otherwise exactly like a 225
found in 1967-1971 CJ5s and V6 powered Jeepsters. My odd-fire engine is in a 1983 Nissan 720 4x4.(Lifted-solid axle-sm420-- 35inch Mud Brutes)
Howell efi-- a major aftermarket vendor of TBI conversions -(a year ago) insisted that TBI could NOT be done to
an odd-fire Buick V6 (Jeep or Jeepster 225 ci)--They said that they tried it and it did not work--- They said that irregular intake manifold vacuums--and other Superstitious things would not allow the engine to run right with a TBI unit.
After several e-mails to Howell where they said that it COULD NOT WORK--- I contacted Howell efi by phone--
and they acted like I was stupid or something for trying to TBI an odd-fire-- they acted like since they failed on a Buick V6 odd-fire that I was nuts for trying-they got nasty and verbally abusive on the phone and hung-up on me. They said that even if I solved the timing irregularities to the TBI computer that vacuum irregularities and other
odd-fire gyrations would not allow the engine to run with a TBI------they were sure "Mr know it all" in attitude.--


To solve the odd-fire distributor (90/150) pulse ( that would normally be used to
control the TBI computer) I mounted a magnetic crank sensor(Trigger) on the vibration damper of my odd-fire
Buick V6 and ran the signal to an ignition module that used to run a Chevy 4.3 TBI system. The crank sensor mimics a 120/120 distributor signal that normally runs a TBI computer. With the crank sensor the module
thinks that it is an even-fire distributor signal. The guys that helped me do the odd-fire TBI are at : http://www.affordable-injection.com/
Now that I have done it and TBI on an ODD-FIRE Buick V6 is practical, Affordable fuel injection is NOW going to sell fuel injection kits for Buick 225/231 odd-fire engines!

Just FYI


Buick V6 conversions
Buick V6 Odd-fire TBI project
Nissan Rock Crawler and a Chevy 3/4 ton 4x4 hauler



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  #2  
Old 09-19-2000, 11:25 AM
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Default Re: Buick V6 Odd-fire (225-231) TBI runs great!

Wow! That sounds great. I'm also in Denver and would like to hook up and check this out. I have an even fire 231 and am considering the same(but even fire) conversion. Did you use Howell or Affordable's FI parts? Check your private messages. Thanks!

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Old 09-19-2000, 11:34 AM
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Default Re: Buick V6 Odd-fire (225-231) TBI runs great!


Well Joe
I used Affordable FI parts--- but they are all the same. Also I used a Holley Crank Trigger.
I adapted the TBI unit to the stock V6 manifold by building an adapter plate.


With an even-fire, you would not need a crank sensor though-- just use the dist tack signal.

If you are in Denver you should come over my place and take a look at the adaption.

You can call me in the evening at 303-768-9507

Buick V6 conversions
Buick V6 Odd-fire TBI project
Nissan Rock Crawler and a Chevy 3/4 ton 4x4 hauler



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Old 09-19-2000, 12:17 PM
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Default Re: Buick V6 Odd-fire (225-231) TBI runs great!

Great job! Really impressive R&D with a "can do" attitude.

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Old 09-19-2000, 12:49 PM
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Default Re: Buick V6 Odd-fire (225-231) TBI runs great!

Just goes to show you that some "Experts" have their head up their a$$es when it comes to trying something more difficult than hotrodding a v-8.

Dionys


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Old 09-19-2000, 02:10 PM
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Default Re: Buick V6 Odd-fire (225-231) TBI runs great!

Congratulations, good job.

That goes to show you, when you use a distributor that fires the plugs at the right time, things work soooo much better.

There's been alot of people who've made the statement that you can use an odd fire cap on an even fire distributor to "convert" it successfully. It runs, but 1/2 the cylinders are way out of time. That will cause the vacuum to pulse like crazy as well, radically throwing off the ECM through the MAP sensor.

I'd bet the TBI guys tried to use the wrong distrubutor as well.

Just shows many of the so-called "experts" don't understand how an engine works.


You may be surprised now that the timing for all cylinders is right, you may not need the crank sensor. How 'bout trying the tach pulse from the distributor now? It didn't work before because the TACH signal was wrong from the wrong HEI distributor.
I'll bet the ECM will "average" the pulses now. The injector firing timing (the "when," not the "how long") on TBI isn't critical.

Great Job!
I'm tempted to come up there just to see it.




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Old 09-19-2000, 02:28 PM
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Default Re: Buick V6 Odd-fire (225-231) TBI runs great!

Great Job
I hope you havve an agreement with affordabel to get a cut of the money for your development time.
Can you give all of us some more details on this breakthrough? ie: part #s , model and years of salvaged parts, mounting difficulties, etc...
I for one would love to try it out on the 68.

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Old 09-19-2000, 02:48 PM
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Default Re: Buick V6 Odd-fire (225-231) TBI runs great!

Thanks Guys--
and RRICH:
I have wondered if the Howell guys tryed to run the odd-fire on an even-fire dist--? and got weird results and
figured that the odd-fire was non- TBI able????
I bought a NEW distributor from PEP BOYS (last year) and asked them to double check if it was an ODD_FIRE HEI
They said that they double checked the part numbers--and "the book" said it was an odd-fire---- So when I found out that the dist was hitting like an even-fire-- I called PEP BOYS who STILL insist that it is an ODD_FIRE dist body!!!! But it is not--- the internals
are not like the old ODD_FIRE that I pulled off of a 1975 Buick Skylark wreak--- nope! The one PEP BOYS sold me looks exactly like other vacuum advance even-fire HEIs I have off of a 1978 and 1979 even-fire engines
I think that the parts professionals are also confused about the difference and
have mis-numbered some even-fire distributors as ODD-fires. And as you know PARTS MIKE on the WWW
insists that you can take an even-fire dist and switch an even-fire cap with an ODD-fire cap and run an odd-fire engine just fine----HUMM -- Many odd-fire owner have testified that their odd-fires run on these hybrids too...
I suspect that many HEI odd-fire engines are not performing due to running the WRONG distributor!
I guess it "kind-of works"---but half of the cylinders will fire 30 degrees late--
In my case I wanted to avoid running an even-fire with an odd-fire cap and get a genuine odd-fire HEI--- but
PEP BOYS sold me the wrong one any way and does not want to refund me because they insist that it is
an odd-fire---!

That extra raw gas and CO2 from those 30 degree late firing cylinders drove my MAP/O2 closed system nuts!

So maybe the Computer would run off of the odd-fire TACK???? I do not know--- it was pretty well decided that it would not---but now I am not sure. I am wondering what Howell really did with an odd-fire and what really happened with their experiments. In the beginning of the project Howell efi told me that they could not even get
the odd-fire to idle -- I never had trouble with the odd-fire idling with the even-fire dist-- it just had bad hesitation and
lots of back firing and lack of power--- but still it ran at all rpms. and also the engine ran pretty good on a carb
with the even-fire dist (odd-fire cap)-----It fooled me completely until the O2 sensor interfered.

Later...


Buick V6 conversions
Buick V6 Odd-fire TBI project
Nissan Rock Crawler and a Chevy 3/4 ton 4x4 hauler



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Old 09-19-2000, 04:16 PM
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Default Re: Buick V6 Odd-fire (225-231) TBI runs great!

SRR, Again, great job...

So where does that leave the reset of us? How do I build my TBI system?

Will you test the TBI directly off the distributor now that you actually have an OD Dist?

Have you passed the emissions yet, which was the reason you were doing the project in the first place right?

Thanks.

Duane Jeepsternut


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Old 09-19-2000, 04:32 PM
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Default Re: Buick V6 Odd-fire (225-231) TBI runs great!

I've been on the Parts Mike website, quite a few things he's said are laughable.
Some of the things are as off-the-wall as Smokey Yunick's.
He needs to take a course in basic ignition, one in carburetion, and one on exhaust theorey.
But he's not really there to know, just to sell his stuff. Lot's of it is "Pink," made to sell, not to use.

Funny how when you use the right stuff things work like they should.

The HEI's guts, like the stator, pole piece and shaft are interchangable between even and odd fire. It's quite likely your housing is from an odd fire, but when someone rebuilt it they put in the wrong internal parts.

I was at Pep Boys and had them pull out an odd fire HEI (surprised they had it in stock, but they did.) It was truly an odd fire with the right internals. The one you have is probably the right housing, right numbers, with the wrong guts. Maybe if they have another one in stock, or order one in, you ask why the one they sold you is different?

If the TACH signal works OK, then the next step would be interesting. Depending whether or not your system is full function or not. If it's full function, then it's also capable of Electronic Timing -- EST. That would increase your mileage and give even better performance.

I think all it would involve would be using the later 7 pin module - if the ECM's designed for it. It calculates the best timing for you. It's constantly using RPM, MAP, O2, and TPS to calculate the exactly correct timing at every instant. All you do is set the initial timing starting point, it does the rest.

The later full functions with a knock sensor is even better. The general idea of that is it's always advancing the timing as much as it can, but when it goes a little too far, the knock sensor sends a signal to the ECM to pull it back a little. It hears the knock way before our ears can, making it extremely efficient.

Come to think of it, maybe the TACH signal doesn't matter even if it is from a crank sensor, not sure.

Then the ultimate -- DIS, the hottest, exactest ignition invented so far - good for 20,000 + RPM, just like the odd-fire? (Hah!)

.








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