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  #1  
Old 02-25-2000, 07:45 PM
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Default Duraspark upgrade question.

Has anyone used the Duraspark upgrade listed by TeamRush on a 304 V8 Howell T.B.I. equiped jeep?
Mizu

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  #2  
Old 02-26-2000, 09:29 AM
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Default Re: Duraspark upgrade question.

It will make no difference if it has fuel injection or not.
The Cap/ Rotor/ Plug Wire upgrade will not affect the fuel injection in any way except for maybe to stop false triggerings caused by the really crappy plug wires the factory used.

The TFI coil, if properly grounded, makes less RF noise than the canister coil.
The TFI coil is an exact replacement for the canister coil. Same input voltage, same primary resistance.

The MSD upgrade takes some different wiring, but will work also.
Is that what you wanted to know?

If Chris Columbus "Discovered" America (with 25 million already here), Can I Go "Discover" Florida?
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Old 02-26-2000, 10:46 AM
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Default Re: Duraspark upgrade question.

Thanks for the information. I am sort of torn between HEI and Duraspark right now. I have never seen the Upgraded Duraspark in action but I have seen the HEI work and it works great. I also know what a piece of crap the old Duraspark is from experience.
I am in desperate need of a distributor right now but I am getting tired of blowing money experimenting on my jeep. I guess I need to hear from more people that have done it on a v8 amc and what their pros and cons are.
I guess what I am saying is, if this is such an amazing and simple upgrade then why hasn't some one thought of it before now? You have heard the old saying, "if it sounds to good to be true....".
Why has the HEI been one of the main staples for AMC ignition upgrades?
I am not really being skeptical but cautious at this point. Like I said I am tired of throwing money in and getting little results.
Also what is the stepped up voltage of the TFI coil vs. the HEI?
Thanks for any info!
Mizu
PS: no offense intended here


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Old 02-26-2000, 03:49 PM
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Default Re: Duraspark upgrade question.

*Mizu* asked,
*I guess what I am saying is, if this is such an amazing and simple upgrade then why hasn't some one thought of it before now?*

The reason no one has thought of it yet is ....
They have! Ford has been using it since 1982.
(I don't remember anyone installing HEI's in Ford pickups or mustangs... Same ignition system...)

MSD had distributor cap upgrades for Mopar and Delco Points type ignitions for years. They are called Cap-A-Dapt, and they use the short but wide Ford type cap and a custom rotor.

All of the factory HEI's have the wider spaced terminals. GM just choked on the design of their HEI. If they would have done a remote coil and used a rotor that could handle the high voltages, or used a shield between the coil and internals, and vented the cap, and used a good rotor, and a better module.....Ect, ect.

The same with Mopar...

Motorcraft just waited to see what worked, and what could be improved on, and built a good ignition.

(Ford did the same thing with the 9" differential... and C-6 automatic)

When I did my Jeep, it had a small block Chevy in it, so I never gave it a second thought.
I used an electronic trigger conversion in a small points type Delco distributor, a MSD Cap-A-Dapt, a high output remote coil, and a MSD 6AL for a module.
(just like I do for the performance cars so I don't have to use the less than desirable GM HEI for GM applications)
By doing that for stock or mild to modest built engines, we save $300 to $500 on an all out racing distributor the street guy simply does not need.
(now WANT is another matter entirely!)

When I did my nephews Jeep with the 360 AMC in it, it already had the very dependable Motorcraft distributor in it. It had a small, crappy cap & rotor, and the plug wires were a joke...
The coil was still an oil filled canister coil, and I have done ignitions and fuel systems for over 20 years, and I know real potential for performance upgrades when I see it....

The Centrifugal advance was really modest, so a set of $4 springs fixed that....
The Cap & Rotor were a joke, so a wide cap from the very same Motorcraft distributor top end seemed to be the logical choice, sense it was off the shelf (and Ford uses them to this day) and required no modifications to the distributor at all, why not?
The coil is 1920's technology, so why not upgrade it with a TFI coil? The same primary resistance, the same voltage, and it's a direct replacement from Motorcraft for the earlier Canister coils. It's 70 years newer technology than the canister automotive coil, and 30 years newer technology than the GM HEI coil. All it takes to use is a different connector to the wiring harness...
Using the better cap lets me use the better plug wires... and again, it's off the shelf....
--------------------------------

No Offense Meant Here, but you jeep guys resist anything that seems simple.
So much has to be changed on a Jeep already just to make it really usable for anything other than commuting and grocery getting,....
I think you all just get into the habit of declaring anything stock to be junk, and throwing it over your shoulder.
God knows Jeep went dumpster diving on more than one occasion...

Also, you all like to be different, and having a GM HEI makes you different.
--------------------------------

Some of the Ford guys have commented that I'm giving away all of their secrets...
Ford guys have known about the Motorcraft/ DuraSpark distributor for years.
So have the aftermarket companies....
MSD and several of the other aftermarket distributor manufacturers use the Motorcraft style pick up coils, and several use the large Ford style caps.

Most people I meet Jeeping are what I call 'Fiddlers'.
Fiddlers don't have automotive education in their back grounds.
They never learned about automotive ignition systems from a set of basics...

Someone they trusted told them the Motorcraft ignition was junk, and they just keep regurgitating what they have heard, over and over again, until someone decided to cash in on it, and sell them something besides Motorcraft/ DuraSpark ignition...

They do a little basic tuning on something shiny, What I have been telling you all how to do, and charge you $400 to $600 for it. Then they nail you again when their inferior, 'upgrade' turns to dust....
My upgrade has been tested by millions of Ford cars and trucks since 1983.
How's that for R&D!

Nearly everyone assumes that because I gave the information away, it's worthless.
If you rolled into my shop and said, 'Fix it.', I would get $60 and hour, and 50% markup on parts to do exactly what I'm telling you to do.

If anybody wants me to do a complete ignition system for them, including installation, I'll be glad to...

I noticed all but one guy here that has the inductive Jacobs omni pack ignitions either went silent, or defended the purchase no matter what facts were presented... Several of the defenders have posted problems that just have to be ignition, but I'm staying out of that...
It's not my place to rub salt in the wounds of guys that just didn't know better and is about to be out another $300 changing back to the Motorcraft that he most likely had in the first place, or $450 to $500 changing to the GM HEI.

I know of only one guy here (Alec), that said other than initial morning starts, the HEI did nothing for him.
There are three guys I know of that have threw the HEI's over their shoulders, and went back to Motorcraft/ DuraSpark with upgrades, and say the difference is night and day.

There are several that have come from points or Prestolite to the Motorcraft/ DuraSpark and can't believe the difference!! (Wait till you get the MSD upgrade boys!)
---------------------------------

*Mizu* asked,
*Also what is the stepped up voltage of the TFI coil vs. the HEI?*

70 years of advanced technology...
Actually, the winding ratios are much higher, and the way the magnetic field acts around that huge core/ rack is the reason why.
----------------------------------

*Mizu* stated,
* "if it sounds to good to be true....".*

You don't have to do it.
If you have ANY DOUBTS AT ALL, I urge you to get the GM HEI or Jacobs Omni Pack...
These will give you a good, healthy (and expensive) respect for the basics... AND off the shelf parts as well....


Later Folks, Aaron.

If Chris Columbus "Discovered" America (with 25 million already here), Can I Go "Discover" Florida?
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  #5  
Old 02-26-2000, 09:20 PM
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Default Re: Duraspark upgrade question.

I like the reference to dumpster diving...lol
See us jeepers do have a sense of humor!
I have spent the better part of the day in my favorite junkyard scrounging up Duraspark distributors and a few other things. I found two Duraspark distributors (which I bought) and a large ford cap base needed for the Duraspark upgrade. I saw many ford cars with parts that will work as well.
Well I did it; I upgraded the distributor to the late model parts. Got the cap, rotor, and TFI coil from NAPA. Everything fit like a glove and the cap doesn't come close to the power steering pump like the HEI would have.
VERDICT: Outstanding! Performance is up, miss and hesitation are gone, and engine idles at 500 rpm and is smooth as glass. It is still to soon to check gas mileage or properly evaluate the upgrade since it has only been done for about an hour but I suspect there will be a slight increase in mileage.
I have to mention that I could not find a complete spark plug wire set anywhere. By that I mean I could not get the right wire set with the right coil wire. The last parts man I saw finally got tired of me and gave me a separate coil wire out of another set that had 90dg boots. Every 80's ford 302, 351, and 460 wire set I saw had the canister type coil wire and/or 90dg boots. We dug through many wire sets to find a 8mm TFI coil wire; glad thatís over with.

Try to have patience with us jeepers, we just want to have decent running jeeps. You have to realize that this upgrade comes a huge surprise to most of us and most of us don't have access to a professional shop nor do we build ignition systems every day.
The HEI has seemingly been the best upgrade available that I have seen for a long time.
I will go out on a limb and predict that this Duraspark upgrade will soon catch on big.
Thanks for all the invaluable information and patience you have given.
Mizu


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Old 02-26-2000, 10:31 PM
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Default Re: Duraspark upgrade question.

I do work with ignitions every day, but I said that already. If I had charged $500 a pop for the ignition, I'd have people that paid for it defending it right and left, no matter what facts were presented later on...
------------

Go tell them knot heads at parts mike that it works....!!!
The upgrade won't help a distributor that is shot, but I have only seen three completely shot Motorcraft distributors in 25 years.
I see three or four shot GM HEI's a week still, and it used to be worse...
It's hard to keep an GM HEI up and running correctly when it's arc welding it's internal parts to dust....

The plug wires you are looking for are for:
1984 Ford F-350 One Ton Truck With 460 CID Engine With EEC.
It's the, 'With EEC' part the Lug nut at the parts store was missing.
EEC controlled engines are what the TFI coil had on them.
If you see a TFI coil, it had EEC.
I don't know why, but the EEC coil plug wire adds $5 to the cost of a set of plug wires at both Auto Zone and Advanced Auto around here...

Also, the NAPA TFI Coil Connector, P/N ICC1, $13. Watch for polarity when you hook the wires up...

A good set of Heli-Core wrapped wires will do the best job for you with the stock TFI coil. It's a hot coil, but the stock DuraSpark module is a single fire inductive ignition, so there is no voltage to waste.

MSD has a coil wire kit, 8.5 MM Heli-Core wire, really low resistance and good noise suppression, great ends, and it has the ends you are looking for. It also includes an adaptor so it can be used with the canister type coil.
MSD P/N 84039, $13.39 from Summit.

Hope everything works for you! Sounds like there might be a convert there....
Let me know if I can help with anything else....

I'm like Red Skelton was, I'd own junk yards just to roam around in them and see what I could make...
I love junk yards. I started working in a junk yard when I was 13 for spare parts.
I feel comfortable in a junk yard.

Later dude, Aaron.

If Chris Columbus "Discovered" America (with 25 million already here), Can I Go "Discover" Florida?
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  #7  
Old 02-26-2000, 10:55 PM
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Default Re: Duraspark upgrade question.

the reason you dont see much about the upgrades Teamrush is mentioning, is because us ford owners just keep quite. we have been using this stuff since the late seventies (unfortunately coil tech was not what it is today). the motorcraft distributor is an excellent unit, just make sure the bushings are tight, and the airgap is set properly. the mag trigger is simple, can be changed in minutes, and inexpensive. the trigger in a hei will take half a day to change on the trail as it requires completely disasembling the distibutor.



dan
<font color=red> NECESSITY IS THE MOTHER OF INVENTION</font color=red>
[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif[/img]<font color=blue>LET IT SNOW</font color=blue>[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/cool.gif[/img]
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Old 02-28-2000, 10:44 AM
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Default Re: Duraspark upgrade question.

Aaron,
Amen to what you said about PartsMike's board! I got a somewhat "scolding" e-mail from him for being "generous" with giving other URL's on his board. I sent Mizu over here for your Duraspark upgrade when everyone else over there wants to either put DUI on their V8 or Mike's HEI on their I6. Now I see that they are going to be introducing an HEI for V8's that is an "inexpensive" alternative to DUI. I have learned a lot about my Jeep from Parts Mike's board, but I don't like being told that I shouldn't point someone to another BBS that has the info that someone needs. Besides that, I have learned more here!

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Old 02-28-2000, 11:08 AM
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Default Re: Duraspark upgrade question.

If I had a $300 to $500 loss in every Ford/ MSD upgrade that went on, I'd be b*tching too!
I could do just like they do, sell the upgrade as a kit, under the TeamRush Racing, or TeamRush Automotive names, charge you out the butt for basically stock parts with my sticker slapped on them, and talk trash about anything else that comes along....

That would be dishonest.
(hear that parts mike, jacobs, dui, ect., ect...)

I'm nasty tempered, fat, and a real pain in the ass to get along with or to work for,
but I have never been dishonest.
I give everyone a fair shake, and if they listen or not, that's their choice.

You have seen me try to help the GM HEI guys just like the Motorcraft guys.
You have seen me try to help the AMC guys just like the Chevy or Ford guys...

There really isn't that much difference between stock ignitions, and the upgrade I introduced here is just a little better than the GM HEI, and a lot cheaper in most cases.

It also sets you up for something that can make a REAL difference, The CDI module...
In my estimation, MSD makes the best all around CDI upgrade unit.
It's cheaper than Jacobs CDI ignitions, takes no more special hardware, and is 50 state emissions legal.
I found MSD much more dependable than Jacobs.

DUI uses MSD hardware with privet labels, and MSD stuff is cheaper through MSD via Summit or PAW or somewhere like that.
--------------------------------

What would pi$$ me off more than anything about the entire situation you are in is that someone was trying to tell me what to think, rather than giving me facts and letting me make up my own mind!

I just try to present the facts, and if you have a mind, you can make it up for yourself...
Once given the facts, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the best road to travel for YOU...
---------------------------------

Thanks for the kind words... Aaron.

If Chris Columbus "Discovered" America (with 25 million already here), Can I Go "Discover" Florida?
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Old 02-28-2000, 04:22 PM
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Default Re: Duraspark upgrade question.

I was just wondering what vehicles I could find in a junk yard that would have the motorcraft distributor I need to upgrade the prestolite distributor I currently have on my AMC 304? I can get one from NAPA (not sure if it si new/rebuilt) but if I can save some money in a yard that would be great. I plan to do TeamRush's upgrade when I do my frame-off but will be doing it incrementally since I am pretty much broke all the time.[img]/wwwthreads_images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Any ideas on cars other than Jeeps would be great, since finding any Jeep in a yard around here is nearly impossible. Thanks all.
fratt

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