OT - Amsoil

[OIIIIIIIO]

Hi

Anyone here an Amsoil Dealer? Preferred Customer?

The truck I just bought has been on AMSOIL since it was purchased and I'm a little nervous to stray from that...so I've been looking into costs...I know...$$$

Anyway...I'm looking for anyone with experience to give some details of the experiences you've had with being an amsoil dealer or prefered customer...

If a prefered customer...has the annual fee been worth it in savings if buying from a dealer?

If a dealer...Is it in a shop/store you own or are you just selling it "out of your garage?" Do you have an inventory you keep or do you work on a "drop shipment" type of set up? How much money have you made (or could you make) from it?

Currently I only have plans to put it into my truck...2004 Ford diesel but might start running it in the Jeep if I ever end up building a stroker... I will probably change the oil in the truck 2x per year...I put on less than 10K miles a year...so...probably will change it before and after winter...Oct/Nov-ish to April/May-ish...but it's 13 quarts an oil change...plus the PO put amsoil products into the tranny, difs, everywhere...he didn't use the amsoil diesel additive but i thought maybe I would if I ended up going with some sort of amsoil dealer/prefered customer set up...

So, any details/tips/suggestions/thoughts you can share would be great!

Thanks,
Patrick

[LEVE]

I'd go out to Bob Is The Oil Guy and nose around about Amsoil.

[OIIIIIIIO]

Hi

After a quick search and reading a few threads seems as though most of the discussions revolve around amsoil and mobil 1 being comparable products and most of the argument being cost/value...and much of amsoil's advantage being a longer time for oil change intervals...

LEVE...is that what you've seen/heard/read/know?

It's "made" in Wisconsin isn't it?

Thanks,
Patrick

[GeeAea]

I'm one of the Amsoil sponsors on BITOG. I don't pedal the fact here, since I'm not a sponsor here.

Dealers come in all shapes and sizes. There are dealers that exclusively do trade shows ..car events. Heck, I hung a banner up at a local lawn mower race track and handed out cards.

The road show types tend to have the higher inventory. The distribution centers are no more than 3 days away. I don't keep a lot of inventory on hand. I DO keep a case of the MCV 20w-50 motor cycle oil on hand since I always get a call on a Friday for some biker short a quart or two with a big club ride on Saturday.

As a dealer you can sell at any price you care to. I tend to give everyone the PC/Dealer price since I'm into longer term relationships with my customers. Sometimes it works out ..sometimes they're one hit deals. It don't matter <shrug>. The PC fee would allow them to buy it directly off of the Amsoil web site ...but if anyone calls me, I can sell it to them and even bill their credit card.

It is, by no means, a get rich quick setup. You earn your commissions. The only thing you can really bring to the table is service. You answer questions and you handle problems.

To many, it doesn't seem worth it. You pay for all your promotional materials. What you get is a full warehouse system at the strokes of a few keys ..and accounting and billing department ...all the things you would never be able to assemble investing tons more money. Keep in mind that 95% of all small businesses fail within (iirc) 3-5 years. You can invest almost a million dollars in a franchise and make rather common wages. Most franchises were never designed to make profits. They were created as "wealth shelters". That is, if you have the money to create one, you don't need the job that they create for you.

Lubricants have come a long way in just the past 10 years or so. The floor has come up ...and the ceiling is struggling to keep pace. Amsoil products are almost exclusively geared to extended drains. If you take a peek at most OTC synthetics (even most of your Mobil 1 offerings ) they don't promote themselves as extended drain oils. Outside of some OEM recommendation (like on some 8qt sump BMW) you have to go upscale on the Mobil1 with their EP line ..which is competitively priced with Amsoil ..even at Wally's.

The main thing I insist on is that I bring the customer value. If I can't bring you either savings or added utility ......I won't recommend you buy it. Now that may mean breaking someone out of the 3k/3m prison and allowing them the confidence to do a 6 month oil change ..that works for me. But otherwise, I'm not going to rely on some hype to sell a product that doesn't need any P.T. Barnum aspect to it.

There is no such thing as "magic oil". There are oils that last longer in service ..or endure more severity of service.

Now I have absolutely no issue with promoting any of the trans fluids or gear oils. The cost is so little over the span of service it isn't even funny ..and the benefits are plentiful.

Anyway, if you would like to discuss this further, shoot me a PM or vist BITOG.

[RRich]

Wondering - what kind of snake is it made of?

Regular dino oil, and all the synthetics don't "break down" like the popular belief. At least not in the heat range a Jeep will ever subject it to. If your Jeep - or car, or truck - gets hot enough to burn the oil you have other more serious problems.

The purpose of changing oil at intervals is to get rid of that pollution. The extended change periods are hype.

Oil gets dirty - from the combustion in the cylinder. Hydrocarbons and carbon particles get down in the oil, affecting its lubrication qualities. The oil itself cannot stop the dirt getting in - no matter what the hype is. It's like ice cream - you cannot stop dirt, leaves, etc. from sticking to your ice cream cone on a windy day.

Notice how long oil in a diff lasts - no combustion, no carbon or HC getting in.

[LEVE]

LEVE...is that what you've seen/heard/read/know?

I'm not sure where it's made; I think on the east coast, somewhere. As for quality, I've yet to hear a bad word from any Amsoil user.

As RRich said, it's not the oil that breaks down. It's the additives that break down, as well as contaminants in the oil like metal engine material, dust, condensation, etc.

Me, I'm of the opinion that synthetics don't have a place in my garage. I used Mobile 1 when if first came out in a new '79 VW Type II Transporter. I changed oil about every 6K (I didn't trust the 25000 advertised oil change interval). At 160,000 miles, three engines and three transmissions later I swore off both synthetics and VW's. Oh happy day when that VW was traded in for an '86 GM Safari.

Most synthetic users claim a little more MPG, a little less drag on the engine and better "cling" of the lube in the diffs. For that they pay a much higher price than plain ol' oil.

I am a heretic and use Wal*Mart Super Tech brand oil, oil filters, or Fram, if they're on sale. I've heard Wal*Mart oil had been made from reclaimed/filtered oil, made by Major Oil, Penzoil, etc.. Truthfully, anymore I don't know where they get it, but it works in my vehicles. I change oil ever 2,000 miles, (or when the Change oil light comes on in the Buick. That oil change algorithm/sensor system in the GM vehicles is AWESOME... I want one on all my vehicles.).

So the long and the short of it is that IMHO, change your oil like you change your underwear... often; it prevents a lot of problems.

[GeeAea]

Oils can wear out from a number of things. As I said, they've come a long way even in the last decade. Most notably in deposit control. Oxidation will cause thickening, shearing of viscosity index improvers will cause thinning. The insoluble level will be a direct result of the number of warm up cycles per mile (miles/warmup cycle=same thing).

Extended drains are not a hype. I've done well over 10k on my wife's 4.0 on Delvac 1 5w-40 ..I've done back to back year long runs on Shell Rotella T 5w-40 at about 9500 each evolution. The used oil analysis showed some stresses to the more trained eye, but the TBN and visc ..flashpoint ..were all solid.

Do you think that a taxi getting 3k oil changes is really doing 3k? Nope. They're getting probably 8k+ out of their oil (typically bulk conventional) when you take fuel consumption into account. They're just in an environment/service that makes an odometer a poor metric to gauge oil fatigue. They're avoiding that "90% of wear that occurs at start up" that Castrol uses in their commercials. Gentlemen, SAE defines "start up" as anything other than "steady state" ..which is about 20 MINUTES into the driving event. The vast majority of the rolling population is in startup for most of their engine's lives. A taxi or police ..sales type, just has such a high ratio of steady state miles to start up (warm up) miles. That's why taxis can be ex-police vehicles that went into service with 100k on them ..and live to be 400-500k taxis.

It' take 12-15 miles to fully warm the engine. The coolant is just half of the equation.

Most babyboomers are now empty nest types. We're not playing soccer parent anymore. Unless we're still commuting for work, we're getting down to 10k/year. In a 4 season climate most people can find an OTC oil to go 6 months. Some have a hard time breaking out of the lifelong 3k/3m prison that soaks up all the surplus feed stocks that we have looking for a purpose either in petroleum products or plastics from all of our fuel production. There's a reason why Europe (and most of the rest of the world) pays $30/liter for synthetics and has longer drains.

One side note on XOM products. Their synthetics used to be exclusively PAO base stocks. Amsoil buys base stocks from XOM. They had such a suplus of capcity for Delvac 1 (just about the best synthetic diesel oil on the planet in such wide distribution) that the sent it out a whole new door with Mobil 1 Truck & SUV 5w-40. Wally's had it 5 quarts for $20 ..while Delvac 1 was about $28. Katrina put and end to that and Mobil could not keep up with demand for PAO basestocks. They had to resort to Group III (PAO is Group IV) in their blends ...which are cheaper to produce. This is the same action that Mobil took exception too when Castrol attempted to get a competitive edge on them by calling GroupIII a synthetic. The government agreed with Castrol on labeling Group III a synthetic.

That didn't bother me none. The performance is what counts. What most did object to is the price not being reduced in the devolution.


..but all in all, when it comes to lubrication, you can't change anyone's mind about the paradigms that they've formed over the past 25-30 years. They've never studied it ..but they've observed much when they were "in the field" or "in the trade" ..and once that experience set .....it kinda gets cast into stone. Trust me ..lots of stuff has changed. Most people still don't know that a 5w-30 is typically heavier than a 10w-30 and most still look at a room temperature quart of oil and think that it thins when cold and thickens up when heated.

[RRich]

Not to disagree - changing oil every 2-3000 miles eliminates all those things.

A case can be made why cocaine is good for you too.

Aftermarket "performance" plug makers have some very nice testimonials as to why they work, but "data" and testimonials still don't make them work.

If using those things were so good, don't you think automakers would use them so they can advertise that you only need to change oil every 30k, 50k etc? Why don't they?

The multi vis oils have the additive that supposedly makes them vary according to temp, but the previous post shoots that down.

Have a look at expensive race engines - F1's and the like - ones that have to sustain long periods of hard running - not 10 second or less drag stuff. They don't use the multi vis stuff - it reduces the lubrication qualities.

I prefer, and only use good old fashioned dino oil and change it frequently. I prefer Valvoline - not because I think it's superior, but out of loyalty - they were such wonderful sponsors for me when I was racing Sprint cars.

Everyone has a choice. Some like the hype, some prefer reality.

Amsoil - never seen it in stores as I recall - do they sell by having parties like Tupperware?

[GeeAea]

Aftermarket "performance" plug makers have some very nice testimonials as to why they work, but "data" and testimonials still don't make them work.

Absolutely true.

If using those things were so good, don't you think automakers would use them so they can advertise that you only need to change oil every 30k, 50k etc? Why don't they?

This is America, Rich. Do you think CAFE is about fuel economy? Nope. It's about allowing more units to be produced. It's a managed thing. Our whole life is wrapped around the worship of the automobile.

Ford wanted to use 5w-20 oil for their EPA certification. The EPA said "fine" ..but you've got to take ALL THESE STEPS to assure that reasonable continued usage occurs in the field after market. Hence, MC 5w-20 was born and MASS MARKETED.

Ask VW/Audi about how many engines were sludged or destroyed when they spec'd exclusive oils that were only available at the dealer. They over sold their product to the point where they could not service it. Busy automotively immature American numb drivers going to quick lubes that never heard of a 5w-40 Euro spec'd oil and the dealer wanting $100 for an oil change. Guess what happened? If you had been keeping up with it, you then saw that a MASS number of VW/AUDI/MB/BMW spec's started appearing on OTC SYNTHETICS after they got their clocks cleaned with class action law suits and providing extended warranties.

side note: Toyota/Lexus has outright design issues. Amsoil even has TSB's out specifically stating that they aren't suitable for extended drains. In these engines, such a routine would not be unwise (3k/3m).

America cars support too many subordinate industries. The service sector ..the transition for OEM to aftermarket parts sector ..the fuel sector ..tire & rubber ..road taxes ..you name it.

For your edification, GM IS coming out with a longer drain oil for OEM use.

GM Gives Glimpse of GEOS

btw- Amsoil limits their recommendations (without UOA) to one year (OTR disels will be different since UOA is typically part of a program). The mileage, depending on product, can be up to 35k under normal service and 17.5k under severe. I have a few customers doing one year oil change intervals. One young woman wanted to do it on her 99 Lumina. Since that was one of the engines with the faulty lower intake manifold problems, I did a UOA on her sump for no charge when I put the SSO 0w-30 in the car. Sure enough, she had coolant intrusion into the oil. The oil reports showed the condition was there, but manageable. The oil, after 13k (her annual mileage) was still good. The wear metals, OTOH, were skewed and elevated due to antifreeze intrusion.

The multi vis oils have the additive that supposedly makes them vary according to temp, but the previous post shoots that down.

Here's what's missing in your words here.

What does a 10 weight oil appear like @ -25F? Extremely THICK (but not as thick as a 30 weight WOULD)
What does a 30 weight oil appear like @ 212F Extremely THIN (but not as thin as a 10 weight WOULD)
That's why looking at a room temperature bottle and thinking that it thins as it gets cold and thickens when it gets hot is ...hmmmm distorted. It THICKENS LESS and THINS LESS over a broad range of temp. That's it's Viscosity Index ..or VI. The amount of change that occurs over a given temp span.


Here's how you could have made the original multi-visc oil (old rules). You would take a 10 weight oil ...take it to a cold temp that was the limit of its pumpability ...and you call that 10w. You would then dope it with polymers (essentially plastic) that were coiled tight when cold ..but unwound when heated .....so that you "simulated" a 30 weight @ 100C. These polymers tend to physically shear in the mechanism of the engine. These first multiviscs led the old schoolers to reject them for the use of either SAE 20 or SAE 30 depending on temp.

Or you could add pour point depresants ...take a 20 grade basestock ..and just dope it less.

This is why Ford had very little trouble getting a 5w-20 to work. The vast majority of the rolling fleet was running 5w-20 and didn't even know it. They called it 5w-30 on the bottle. It would shear within a 1000 miles. Remember that old Sunoco commercial back when you typically had SAE 30 (good) 10w-30 (better) and 10w-40 (best) ath the gas stations? The commerical would say "some 40 weights will degrade to a 30 weight by the time you reach Floriday (form some northern state). It was true.

This was the way most of us ran on conventional oil up to about the mid 80's ..there abouts where refining technology advanced and we ended up with Group II basestocks. I'm not fully versed on the fine details, but the processes produced even broader VI base stocks

The vast motoring public operates an engine for 20 minutes or less. That's how long it takes for the oil to reach full operating temp in a non-exchanged engine. Up to that point, you're pumping HEAVIER OIL. That HEAVIER OIL takes more hp to pump. It's a parasitic loss. The thinner the oil or the broader its VI, the less energy will be spent during that warm up process. If you're doing a short trip, even with a 20 weight, you're probably off the SAE scale when you turn off the key.

That's the WHOLE deal there on the evolution to thinner oils.

Have a look at expensive race engines - F1's and the like - ones that have to sustain long periods of hard running - not 10 second or less drag stuff. They don't use the multi vis stuff - it reduces the lubrication qualities.

..and if you had to endure only 500 miles at high output, you're using whatever keeps the engine just shy of self destruction. Some of the new rules limit the number of engines for a season (or was it races per engine). The oils are formulated accordingly.

Everyone has a choice. Some like the hype, some prefer reality.

As I said, Rich ..people form opinions based on their snap shot experiences and it's more or less cast in stone. It's a common failing. The world is a dynamic place and while you've been distracted after you already learned enough to figure that you needed to learn no more about a topic ..it quietly decided that you weren't going to be the last word on what was "good enough". Life is not filled with AMC based 4.0 engines that can trace themselves back to (heck, when was it?) the 60's.

Opinions are hard to change once set ..but facts are facts.

Amsoil - never seen it in stores as I recall - do they sell by having parties like Tupperware?
__________________

Funny Amsoil is a niche product. It is sold at some retail outfits ..it's just not offered on a "chain wide" basis. Some franchise NAPA's will have it ..or anyone who wants to stock it. Many garages carry the Amsoil line for those customers that want it. Otherwise, you can buy it on the internet, just like people do for Red Line or Royal Purple ..which, although being at some chain retailers, still has very limited distribution at the retail level. You can't find it anywhere.

Amsoil does have one Group III offering. The XL line is designed for an alternative to the 3k/3m quick lube market. It's designated as a 6m/7500 mile oi. So while Iffylube and every other swinging joint is convincing you that you need to change your oil out like underwear, Amsoil is trying to break that prison of old school thought.

btw- if I had some babe in the woods ..one that treats a car like an appliance, I probably would have a hard time telling them anything else besides 3k/3m. It would be for their own protection. If they aren't gifted with the brains to check their oil and take car ownship seriously, they need to pay the added costs by visiting the vulchers just to get the services that they may not be capable of keeping track of themselves.

Those who ARE conscienscous ..yet want the liberation of not having as many scheduled service events are people who I can bring value to.

Again, I won't promote the oils to anyone that I can't bring value to in terms of avoided costs in $/time. OTOH, I have no trouble with the other drive train lubricants at all. They are so superior to OEM and are so infrequent in incidence of service it's a no brainer for me.

[RRich]

Gee - Thanks for all the information - but does it keep leaves from sticking to ice cream cones in a wind?