OT - Amsoil

[GeeAea]

No. In fact there are some customers that use it as a camamel like glaze on ice cream due to the fantastic flow capablity without heating ..like hot fudge. It makes the nuts and sprinkles cling just fine.

[RRich]

In all seriousness oil, no matter what kind - in an engine - is subject to blowby gasses getting down past the rings carrying unburned or partially burned fuel. That unburned fuel kills the lubrication quality of the oil - doesn't gasoline wash off dirty parts nicely?

Also carrying into the oil is water - a normal product of combustion. Mix water and gasoline and you'll get a mild acid. What does acid do to aluminum bearings? If you don't believe it gets very acidic, try tasting a little from an extended oil change. If it's been in long enough accidental droplets can even burn red spots on your arm. Yes, they can put acid neutralizers in the oil, isn't that an admission that it gets acidic? How well does the acid neutralizer lubricate?

And it gets carbon particles in it from the combustion process. What are diamonds made of - aren't they carbon? That carbon is not as hard as diamonds, but it's hard enough to erode steel and cast iron. Filters can only catch the larger particles, the ones small enough to get through the filter does the wearing. So far no oil company has claimed to eliminate the need for a filter. Invent that and you'll have something.

It all adds up to wear. If you want the engine to wear faster than it should, don't drain and replace the oil.

It's not the fault of the oil, it's the way rings and valves seal out the products of combustion. Stop that and you'll have something too.

So no matter what kind of oil is used, it's subject to pollution.

Frequently dumping the oil - and all the crud it's collected - gets that crud out.

I don't doubt that Amsoil is a quality oil - but many many other oils are too, and more readily available.

[GeeAea]

As I said, old school opinions are hard to change. I was right there with you, pal with my 1970's snap shot knowledge base. Times change.

In all seriousness oil, no matter what kind - in an engine - is subject to blowby gasses getting down past the rings carrying unburned or partially burned fuel. That unburned fuel kills the lubrication quality of the oil - doesn't gasoline wash off dirty parts nicely?

Unless you've got all of your driving in the fuel enrichment part fo the start up cycle, this wont's stop a GM OLM allowing you to go up to 13k (longest observed) on over the counter conventional oil. You could need a tune, have leaky injectors, etc...

Rich, the biggest life extension that ever happened to the reciprocating gasoline internal combustion engine was the wide spread adoption of EFI.

You can flash off about 50% of the aromatics introduced into the oil from fuel. The rest is a bit harder. You will get higher combustion byproducts in the oil during fuel enrichment events. They're usually small insoluble particles that are suspended by he dispersents and detergents in the oil. If they aglomerate, the filter will take them out.

Also carrying into the oil is water - a normal product of combustion.

Yes sir. For every gallon of gas you burn, you PRODUCE (this is 100% independent of any moisture IN the air you suck in) 1.4 gallons of water vapor. This is for every engine. Most of it goes out the exhaust. For the minor amount that leaks past the rings ..well, again, if you're living in short trip land and don't get the oil temp up ..it will condense. It will tax the acid fighting ability of the oil. Most oil designed for "beyond OEM drain" have a high TBN (Total Base Number). This number will decay the longer you keep an oil in service.

I don't have anything other than the skinny on it, but newer sulphur requirements in fuel have lowered this requirement a great deal. It's a vast topic and I can't collect all the information.

..but moisture is only an issue for the short trip user. Drive long enough, it's never an issue.

btw- if you did suck in moist air, it increases the required CFM to combust the gallon of gas. Humid air is less dense than dry air ..as much as that is counter intuitive.

And it gets carbon particles in it from the combustion process. What are diamonds made of - aren't they carbon? That carbon is not as hard as diamonds, but it's hard enough to erode steel and cast iron. Filters can only catch the larger particles, the ones small enough to get through the filter does the wearing. So far no oil company has claimed to eliminate the need for a filter. Invent that and you'll have something.

Insolubles are very small at onset. <2um (microns). It is critical to control these in diesels since they produce so much soot. This, again, is the job of the detergents and dispersents to keep these llttle turd balls from joining up.

That's why you'll see either bypass filters or centraguges on OTR diesel engines. There are only a few criteria for condemnation levels on a diesel, the soot level being #1. They will have OEM limits on Fe (Iron) of like 150ppm where that too can be an abrasive factor.

Gasoline engines are so many magnetudes below that level, and the equivalent service interval so much shorter (even if a gas extended its drain) that this is not a factor. We have other fatigue causing factors that diesels do not. It's nothing for something like a VW Turbo Diesel with a bypass filter to do a UOA @ 25k and find that the oil is suitable for continued use. On a gasoline engine this would not be common with OTC conventional oil.

It all adds up to wear. If you want the engine to wear faster than it should, don't drain and replace the oil.

90% of all wear is unavoidable, Rich. It's that marketing play on words that Castrol uses. "90% of all wear occurs at start up". That's SAE nomenclature for the first 20 minutes of non-steady state operation. There's nothig you can do about this. It has nothing to do with your oil selection. It has nothing to do with how fresh your oil is. It has to do with the ill fitment of parts and the ability of additives to refresh their AW layers on the rubbing points in the engine. Zinc and Phosphorus plate out on metal surfaces. As your cam and chains and rings rub across these surfaces the ZDP (zddp-the compound that they form with metal) sacrifice themselves to prevent metal to metal contact. When a spot gets rubbed clean, hopefully there's more zinc/phos there in the oil to replace it. This reaction requires a combination of surface temp and oil temp. The time required for reaction is reduced the warmer the oil is (a byproduct of running long enough). That's why that startup (warm up) wear is on a curve. It evaporates to nothing after 20 minutes of operation.

Now, sure, you can run your oil too long. It can be fuel diluted (all oil will smell like it has fuel in it ..even if it has low fuel content (<.5%). It can oxidize ..the TBN can be shot .........but without some sensible metric for determining it, 3k/3m can be totally way over doing it.

Mileage can be a very poor standard to use for oil life. The newer Crown Vic Police Intercepters have an hour meter display in addition to the odometer. It only works in Park or Neutral. They attribute every hour with 33 miles of equivalent usage. For the DIY'r with just an odometer, fuel usage is a good metric to base oil changes on. Your average mpg accounts for everything just about. Idling, high speed driving, flogging it, wheeling ....whatever. You can't escape fuel consumption. The higher your mpg, the more miles you can accumulate before changing your oil. You typically have to take some things into account like power density and sump size ..but it's far more accurate than just an odometer or a calender.

So no matter what kind of oil is used, it's subject to pollution.

..and it's also a source of pollution. Right now oil is still too cheap for us. As I think I explained early (may not have) you have a choice of what you do with the byproducts of crude cracking. It's usually a choice between plastics and lubricants ..and as you can easily see at Wally's ...people cart tons of both out the door by the ton at LOW LOW Prices. The rest of the world ..the vast world that doesn't have the mass motoring public that we have, pays much more for motor oil. Now one might say that they also pay more for fuel, but that's just at the pump. No other nation provides a (literally) world class defensive umbrella over the most productive resources than we do. We think we have cheap gas, but we're just paying much more for it through a whole other door.

[RRich]

No doubt fuel injection reduces the excess fuel in the cylinders.

But if running a certain kind of oil eliminates any blowby, then why do we still use PCV systems? If there's no more possibility of any gasses getting in the crankcase, we wouldn't need them. As you might know, the PCV system is to evacuate the gasses that get by the rings.)

Yes, new engines have less blowby than older ones, but it's still there.

And since it doesn't get carbon in the oil, then oil filters are no longer needed?

Does Amsoil or the "other" ones like it reduce cylinder pressure to the point that nothing can get past the rings?
If rings made a total and complete seal, then there would be no need for a starter - simply ignite the next cylinder to fire from when it was shut off.

And IF only the exact amount of fuel was given to the cylinders, and total complete burning was possible, then there would be 0 emissions, no need for Cat converters etc. Geez, the EPA needs to know that!

And, as you say, short trips are the worst - Our pres has not yet dictated that all trips must be long ones.

And then of course - misfires are never heard of anymore. Wires, coils, plugs etc cannot possibly go bad as long as Amsoil is used?

No more PCV's.
No more Cats.
No more emissions.
No more starter.
No more oil filter.
No more combustion pressure - thus no more heat.
No more short trips.

Gee - all those wonderful things just by going to Tupper - oops, sorry, to oil parties.

Interesting thing -
Some people get scammed - even smart ones. I was in a friend's smog station a few years ago. 2 guys brought in a used Toyota for a smog test. As part of the testing procedure, their oil was checked. Nothing showed on the dipstick.
John told the customer he needed to add at least 2 quarts to it. He wouldn't test it without enough oil in it. The customer got upset - he said engines don't need oil! It's all a scam by the oil companies.

John would not run the engine to do the smog test. The customer got really irate - almost to the point of threatening John. The customer informed John since he was a Cal-Tech engineering student (Cal-Tech is right down the street) he knew it was a scam.
We pushed the car out to the curb and told them to leave. When the jerks left they really revved the engine - to show us how informed they were, and and we weren't. About 45 minutes later we saw a flatbed towtruck go by - with the Toyota on it.

At least you don't run it without oil.

An old story tells about a guy that had "magic fuel pills." Just drop 2 pills in a tankfull of water - and you get gasoline. The story says the oil companies did away with him.
They also did away with the 100 MPG carburetor.
Careful - now we have "Magic Oil?"

I have to go outside now and change oil on 3 vehicles.

[GeeAea]

But if running a certain kind of oil eliminates any blowby, then why do we still use PCV systems? If there's no more possibility of any gasses getting in the crankcase, we wouldn't need them. As you might know, the PCV system is to evacuate the gasses that get by the rings.)

Where did I say that? Quote me, please. I said that the biggest impacts on oil are during the warm up process and are a combination of fuel enrichment and condensation of unavoidable moisture in the blow-by.

Fuel wash down is comging back into being a problem with the DI (direct injection) gasoline engines. Lots of fuel dilution. Oils are having a hard time coping with it. It even carries over to valve deposits, since anything that volatilizes in the oil has no fuel wash on the back side of the valve. Some advanced Audi's intake valves are encrusted with deposits in a very short time.

And since it doesn't get carbon in the oil, then oil filters are no longer needed?

Again, I said nothing of the sort. Filters do last longer than they used to. We just aren't as dirty as we used to be. Believe it or not.

Does Amsoil or the "other" ones like it reduce cylinder pressure to the point that nothing can get past the rings?
If rings made a total and complete seal, then there would be no need for a starter - simply ignite the next cylinder to fire from when it was shut off.

And IF only the exact amount of fuel was given to the cylinders, and total complete burning was possible, then there would be 0 emissions, no need for Cat converters etc. Geez, the EPA needs to know that!

And, as you say, short trips are the worst - Our pres has not yet dictated that all trips must be long ones.

I'll take your "silly's" as some maladaptive "sauce for the goose" with my pointing out that the price at the pump isn't our full costs ..but they're still non-sense.

And then of course - misfires are never heard of anymore. Wires, coils, plugs etc cannot possibly go bad as long as Amsoil is used?

No more PCV's.
No more Cats.
No more emissions.
No more starter.
No more oil filter.
No more combustion pressure - thus no more heat.
No more short trips.

Gee - all those wonderful things just by going to Tupper - oops, sorry, to oil parties.

Now you're exposing your lack of reading ability, your ignorance, and lack of class.

You're a gifted man, Rich ..but you sure can immate a much less confident and uncivil person at the drop of a hat. You've turned this into some pissing contest.

Trust me, you've already lost. If you need it, I'll get the bona fide text from non-Amsoil sources ..but that will just have your ego even more chafed and more foolishly reacting. I'm sorry you felt the need to go to this low life level of posting.

You may cling to your 60's and 70's understandings and reject the state of the art for the absolute reality it is.

I have no reason to convert you to the 21st Century.

[GeeAea]

Some server issue

[RRich]

"""""Trust me, you've already lost. If you need it, I'll get the bona fide text from non-Amsoil sources ."""""

The internet does not reject words.

Lost? No, I haven't lost, I've never used that stuff, and I change oil when it's best for the engine.

He He - the more supposed "data" you present the more convinced I get that it really is a scam. Same category as Slick 50, pyramid hats, fountain of youth etc.
If it was widely accepted it would be available in more places, especially if it was in demand. It wouldn't be sold on the party plan or behind closed doors.
The excuse is "they don't make enough of it to widely market it." It's obvious why.

Basic fact that can't be disputed --- When the oil - or pretend oil - gets changed frequently - the garbage that has collected in the oil gets thrown out too. Whether it's water, unburned gasoline or carrot juice - IT'S GONE! That's just plain physics 101. It doesn't matter where the "oil" was purchased, or how much it cost. IT'S GONE!

Some people believe there is such a thing as "motor in a can" - sorry, most don't.

Use it if you want, don't change your oil if you want, believe what you want.

Now you say Direct Ignition pollutes the oil? How, by igniting more of the air/fuel mixture?

[Jim_Lou]

Go back and look again. I thought he said "direct injection."

[GeeAea]

Here's a really good thread on BITOG about how the GM Oil Life Monitor works. It's worth the read for the genius of the thing. They must want a fortune for the patent since on one else comes close to working as well. The Euro's are working on true oil sensors and others dabble in some calculations (the newer jeep's appear to be a duty cycle thing - but also appear to get triggered at programmed intervals in sequence = 1st oil change @ 2500 .etc.). This was posted by a GM Power Train technician that worked in the engine testing dept. It will give you some insight into just what fatigues oil.

ZDP depletion and GM oil life monitor - Bob Is The Oil Guy

[GeeAea]

Originally Posted by Jim_Lou

Go back and look again. I thought he said "direct injection."

Yes. The newer direct injection engines result in, at times, extreme fuel dilution. I don't know how they get either higher output or lower emission in the (alleged) advancement ..but I haven't read up on it too much either. I do see the effects on the oil that they use and how valves have been fouled.

This is allegedly 22k miles.