Modifying to Flex-fuel

[Jim_Lou]

All good ideas! Let's do it.

But with the drop in fuel economy, is it really saving you money? Every analysis I've seen has concluded that E85 has to be between 75% and 80% the price of regular to break even.

This isn't a political discussion, is it?

[LEVE]

But with the drop in fuel economy, is it really saving you money?

At this point, yes it is saving me money. If the gasoline price continues to drop, and the E85 stays the same, then no, it will not pay. At that crossover point, I'll switch back to gasoline.

This isn't a political discussion, is it?

Energy production discussion, in general, usually will boil down to a political discusison at some point. It seems rationall and logical argments are glossed over or thrown out by the great unwashed voting populace.

[CJ7Taz]

I ain’t got time to play with you guys today. I pick up the little granddaughter later and I’ve got several things to do before then.

She’ll keep me pretty busy over the weekend so I probably won’t have much time until Monday. Leve, that should give you some time to figure out how to tilt the world on it’s axis so the equator runs through the United States so we can grow that sugar cane.

The reason Brazil has been successful with ethanol is that they basically use garbage to produce it. It is a byproduct of sugar production. After all the sugar that can economically be extracted from the cane with today’s methods has been produced, what still remains after the processing and will not economically produce sugar is used to produce ethanol.

I think you got the answers to your original questions you just didn’t like them. Once you plane the head for higher compression you would need higher octane gasoline. As mentioned you could use extra head gaskets or replace the head with one that hasn’t been planed to lower the compression. There are octane boosters but I don’t know if they work.

Yes, remove all subsidies including the one on corn used to produce ethanol.

I doubt you are saving any money. It’s psychological. It costs less to fill the tank so it makes you feel good. It doesn’t take you as far so you fill the tank more often feeling good each time about how much you are saving per gallon over the price of gasoline.

EDIT
Where did you get that 1% of corn used for ethanol figure or maybe how old is that data? I understand it’s about 20%.

[OIIIIIIIO]

Originally Posted by CJ7Taz

I doubt you are saving any money.

I'm pretty sure LEVE knows whether or not it is truely saving him money...

[JeepnGreg]

also keep in mind that as new technology goes online (cellulosic ethanol and the like), ethanol will become more plentiful and cheaper....hopefully to the point where we don't need to subsidize the crap out of it and still have it cheaper than regular gas.

if you run ethanol exclusively you can make more power per displacement than with gasoline since you can raise the compression a lot.....but then thats all you can run.... and you still have to determine the balance of cost vs mileage since it would consume more fuel per unit of displacement than gasoline.

theres a balance...I think it will work itself out later....if gasoline costs keep going up in the long term.

[CJ7Taz]

Had a couple of spare minutes.

Originally Posted by OIIIIIIIO

I'm pretty sure LEVE knows whether or not it is truely saving him money...

Ethanol runs from about 76,000 to 84,000 BTU per gallon depending on water content. Gasoline runs between about 115,000 to125,000 BTU/gal. Using the lower numbers because Leve lives in a damp climate and using 85% ethanol, we have:

85% x 76,000 + 15% x 115,000 or about 82,000 btu/gal. If Leve paid $3.59 per gallon, that’s a bit less than 23000 btu/dollar. Gasoline should have been $5.03 per gallon for the same amount of energy.

I’ve shown you my figures and calculations. What can you show to support your statement?

_____________________

For you Greg I have an old joke but I’ll update it a little.

These two guys started a business. They bought gasoline in Kansas City at $4 per gallon and hauled it to Chicago where they sold it for $4 per gallon.

After the first month, one of the guys sat down with the receipts to figure the profits. He exclaimed, “We’re loosing money!” to which the other replied, “Yeah, we need a bigger truck.”

As long as it costs more btu to make a gallon of ethanol than the ethanol will produce in return, it’s a loosing proposition no matter how much you make.

[JeepnGreg]

Originally Posted by CJ7Taz

Had a couple of spare minutes.
As long as it costs more btu to make a gallon of ethanol than the ethanol will produce in return, it’s a loosing proposition no matter how much you make.

My understanding is that it doesn't cost more BTU's,

corn ethanol has a a max potential of 1.3 units of energy return for every one energy of input....which kind of sucks

Cellulosic ethanol can go as high as 8 out for 1 in

this is energy in terms of fossil fuels used from production to product...including the farm stuff used to grow the product..

sugar cane is much higher...i want to say 15 units out? Brazil uses this stuff exclusively....they learned after the 70's

there was a big article in national geographic a few months ago.....they cited references from DOE and other some research groups. I'm still at work, so i dont have the specifics in front of me.

the technology isnt there yet ...but it doesnt mean it wont be someday.



I'd love to see more "alternative" fuels....if they are cost effective. If gas goes up to 10 bucks a gallon....then suddenly it new things might be more attractive. I think the problem wont be solved by any one alternative or an other....it'll be a mix of many.

[CJ7Taz]

Originally Posted by JeepnGreg

corn ethanol has a a max potential of 1.3 units of energy return for every one energy of input....which kind of sucks

I’ve seen that 1.3 number before even a little higher.

Originally Posted by JeepnGreg

this is energy in terms of fossil fuels used from production to product...including the farm stuff used to grow the product..

Not what I’ve read. That 1.3 or a bit higher number is the energy used from corn delivered to the distillery to ethanol. Does not include fuel used in planting, fertilizing, irrigation, crop dusting, harvesting, transportation to the distillery. Nor the incidentals like the fuel used to produce the fertilizer, transport it to the farm and others.

I’m a little hard. I want EVERYTHING included. I want to include the energy as utilities for the farm, his personal fuel usage in his trucks and cars even if he was going to town to the barn dance. If he goes to the diner in town, I want to include the energy costs of preparing his food. That’s all part of the energy cost.

Originally Posted by JeepnGreg

sugar cane is much higher...i want to say 15 units out? Brazil uses this stuff exclusively....they learned after the 70's

My information is that it’s 8. The reason it’s so high is that they burn the bagasse, the fibrous material left over after pressing. By doing this, they are actually able to produce enough energy to distill the ethanol, power the plant and have excess to sell as electrical energy. Again, this does not include any energy used in producing the crop or transporting it to the plant.


Give us an update after you re-read that article.

[JeepnGreg]

ok, my numbers were off a touch.....more for cellulose actually....cant find if the data includes planting or not.

check for yourself...heres the online version of the article i was refering too

Biofuels - Interactive - National Geographic Magazine

click the energy balance tab at the top


the written article is here

Biofuels - National Geographic Magazine

and

Ethanol More Energy Efficient Than Thought, Study Says

[OIIIIIIIO]

Excuse my ignorance (no...this is not sacrasm)

Don't BTU's refer to heat production, not necessarily work energy for moving a piston?