Weber 32/36DGV verses the Weber 38DGES

[yodta]

heheh, yeah josh, carbs can be a pain to get the hang of, but what's to break once you get it all setup? [img]images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[foxracing706]

To bad you guys dont live in az. I am in desparet need of your help.

Brad

[yodta]

follow the links in those posts & start with the basics, man. it's not that hard if you can read & follow directions [img]images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

come back on with questions...
I'm sure Sarge & I could help you get it worked out.

[Sarge]

Great tech writeup, Yodta . I have never had much of a chance to tune out any of the Toy engines with Webers on them, just never seem to have the time . Most of the ones I have been able to look at do not use both vacuum advance lines , I will certainly pass that useful info along. The reason I mentioned modified engines not running well with the 32/36 in comparison is due to cam designs . Most of the 262 "torque" range cams have too wide an overlap to work well with a small primary throat . Some engines will respond well while others are very flat in their throttle response. This is the case with the Suzuki's I tune every day , hence them running against the wall in the primary. Add that problem to an already underpowered truck that is 50% heavier than stock and you'll see my point about using the 38DGAS instead . I would like to see a pic of that Offy intake , anyone got a link to it ? I do totally agree about going with an intake that eliminates the adapter plates altogether , but with one exception . Low plenum intake manifolds have one bad drawback when using a Weber, it tries to draw the a/f mixture out of the carb at an angle and creates a turbulence under the carb . Some of the engines I've ran into needed at least a 1/2" thick spacer to stop this . Works the same with the air filters. Use the short filter and you will notice quite a difference in how the carb breathes and responds. The 2 5/8" filter or better still using the Ramflo is the only way to go . These carbs are designed to breathe straight in, not up and over the choke housing .

The adapter plates and install kits , wow. I've been on Worldpac for years about improving those things with no luck at all. The techs at Redline hate them as much as we do but their complaints fall on deaf ears. It's a real shame since those plates and overall quality issues are giving them a bad name and costing them sales in the long run . Lately most of the new air filters I've bought just suck, the rubber is too thick and won't allow the filter clips to hold the unit together properly without some modifications . That's another thing , sell me a carb for that high price and give me $.50 worth of stupid clips to hold the filter on it ?? Yeah, right . I think they really could do better. Speaking of filters, anyone tried to buy a Ramflo lately? I've tried to contact Lynx directly but no luck , might start a dealership here if I can get them to answer. The K&N's are ok, but the straight-in style of the Ramflo works so much better.

Another note about the 38DDGAS. For those that run into a bogging problem in the upper end , you can use F6 emulsion tubes and slightly smaller idle jets to redirect the curve to stop this problem. The E tubes will bring the main fuel curve down a bit lower and allow the engine to use it when vacuum is at a decent level. The upper end will lean out just a bit but if needed smaller air jets will fix that .

I'd like to hear some examples of idle jet sizing on Toys. I'm curious to see if the plenum design of the stock intake as well as the Offy bring the idle jet size problem into play or not . The Sami's generally use 60-65 jets, some clear up to 75's depending upon the cam used. Sounds weird when the mains are only 135-140 , but that's the price paid with the plenum's design. I have a 40DCNF that is about to get mounted on a hybrid 1.6L engine, we'll see how that works as far as total flow and driveability. The only reason for using that huge carb is the DCN series drops their throttle valves 90* to the plenum, opposite of the DGV's . This should really help with the idle jet size issue since the transition would be better placed into the air stream of the intake. They did produce these down to 36mm sizes, I just bought a rare 38DCNF12 a week ago, still waiting for it to arrive. Glad to find someone who likes to play with these things , maybe we can come up with some better solutions for everyone.
Sarge

[77celica]

There is some awesome information in this thread. I will bookmark it for myself.

I am asking questions because I already have a 32/36 and am VERY happy with it. I am planning on installing header and exhaust soon and later a mild (like stage 1) cam.

As far as the carb running at the limit of the primary or secondary, I have no problems with that so far. I can cruise easily on the highway at 70 with plenty of pedal left. I don't know if it is because of the way celicas are geared or what. My speedometer goes to 120 and I have no doubt that I can hit the limit (on fairly level ground). It does a lot better now with the electronic distributor (from an 80 truck) and coil. The electronic ignition increased my upper rpm power big time. (My car came stock with points).

32/36 vs. 38/38
----------------
Has anyone had the experience of running one and switching to the other?

Which will give me better throttle response and better midrange power? I know the 38 will outflow the 32/36 up top.

[Benjamin]

You will feel the difference! I've done this mod to a couple of 22r's and this is a big change in low~midrange power.
But the 38/38 is not as nice a carb as the 40/40.
whether you go 38 or 40, be aware that these carbs are much harder to tune right and do not idle as well as a 32/36, but there idle is ok(not bad). Jetting cost a lot more to do and is really picky. If you get a 40/40 jetted and tuned, you can smoke a 22RE with little effort. I had a 40/40 on my current rig and it dynoed 133 hp. when I change it out for smog and go to stock, I get 106 from the same dyno. I have not tryed the 32/36 on this motor, i would think its closer to a
stock carb than a 38 or 40.

[yodta]

Hey Sarge, I've been meaning to get back to this post, but the last part of the week was hectic!

I can take some pictures of the offy intake if you like. my setup does have a half inch spacer between the carb & intake, just like you were saying. I actually have the dual plane manifold which separates the flow from the two carb barrels. I'm not really an expert on any of this by any means, so I'm not sure whether it really makes a difference or not. apparently you're supposed to get better low end torque with a dual plane setup, though.

Interesting information on airflow and engine response. makes perfect sense. so a taller filter is better then? I don't really have the room under my hood. I am curious, however, about one of these Ramflo filters you're talking about. what's the deal with them? and what do you think about those foam filters? I haven't seen any sorta filter that would allow for a straight in airflow, though. you got a line on anything like this (without switching to sidedrafts? [img]images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img])

I would certainly like to try the 38 in my truck. I had a 40/40 on it before with a head from DOA. I could never get it to run properly, but that was before I figured out that most of my trouble was related to timing and not jetting. maybe I'll give it a shot again one day. I don't think it'd work with the dual plane offy I have, though, so I'd need to go back to my stock manifold.

heheh, yeah, I remember when I got my first Weber carb with those stupid little clips and that cheesy filter. I thought to myself, man, what a rip!!! I thought for sure I'd be getting some kinda nice round filter. personally I've found the K&N to be a pain in the ass. gets dirty too quickly, and I didn't really notice anything in the way of gain, so lately, I've just been using a tossable purolator.

speaking of emulsion tubes... man, you're a true jetting freak when you know what the different emulsion tubes do! I bought manual from pierce manifolds a couple of years ago. it was great for helping me learn how everything works. they had some information in there about tubes and how the different orifices patterns up the tubes make for behavioral differences. it's crazy how that works when you think about it, because the changes seem so minute when you're sitting there looking at two different tubes.

[cmo]

I've used both carbs, and while I can't quantify anything, I feel that the 38 gave much more power and throttle response over all rpm ranges. The engine I was using it on was stock except for headers. I was getting about 18-19mpg which I thought sucked coming from the stock carb.

When I finally blew the head gasket I swapped in a DOA 150hp engine and switched to a 32/36 because of emissions compliance and problems with the 38mm flooding offroad. This setup was a dissappointment compared to the 38mm. You really have to push the accelerator hard, and even then it just doesn't seem to have as much as the stock engine and the 38mm. Oh, and my mileage has been around 16mpg. The only reasons I don't swap the carb back are the perceived flooding issues with the 38 (not a problem for you, though) and the fact that I already sold it.

Now that I'm working again and have some money to spend I'm going to get rid of the carbs altogether and get a SDS system to convert to EFI. That ought to really make the expense of the DOA engine worth it after all.

Funny thing is I was looking at a 77 Celica in Texas on Ebay. Probably the same one mentioned in this post by someone else. If I ever got an early Celica that I didn't have to have smog tested, there's no doubt I'd go with another 38.

Oh, I forgot to mention that the 38mm was a little cold blooded in the winter--and that's when I was living in Phoenix. The 32/36 seems to handle cold mornings better, even now that I moved from Phoenix to Bosie.

[yodta]

what's this SDS EFI conversion?
I'd like to read some on this...

[dok33]

It's a standalone management system, but it's alot cheaper than a Haltech or similar and is supposed to be pretty easy to program. It's also been proven to work very well on the 20/22r series motors. here's a link: www.sdsefi.com